West End Workbench

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jwealleans
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 4272
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:46 am

Re: West End Workbench

Post by jwealleans »

Not many posts but things have been moving on - AGW came up with the goods last week and we were able to do some running trials with the new bogie wheels and they seem to be fine. In some ways we've gone backwards as I've been dismantling again this week, but in the confidence that I can reassemble things which will work.

I finished putting the DJH tender brasswork together. The cast top is simply placed for the picture. It all fitted together far better than a few other kits I can think of.

Image

I did end up putting two captive nuts inside the body so it screws onto the chassis. I also think it sits slightly high, according to the buffer setting gauge I use, which makes it look more slab sided than it ought.

I retrieved the motor and Highflyer gearbox from the WSM version and it will go into the DJH. It is snug, but it fits.

Image

... and with the lid on:

Image

I will be putting a flywheel on these as well.

The WSM tender (the one with the wonky wheel) did exhibit some pretty poor running when I tested it - I must have knocked or damaged something working on it as it didn't before. However, that was why I had ordered up a pair of frames from AGW which Colin had kindly supplied 'rigid' (i.e. with holes instead of hornblock cutouts). AGW have always done this on request.

Image

I had to adapt it to fit the tender - at the rear (left) it slots over a lip in the cast body structure while at the front a bolt goes up through some plastikard glued to the sides internally to a captive nut on top. I also had to remove a section of frame in front of the front spacer so it slots inside the body. The wheels I had were on pinpoint axles which have been filed back. Small washers on the inside of the frames to increase the bearing surface and the centre axle hole is enlarged slightly to allow it to ride up over uneven track.

Image

Runs much better now, just needs the pickups reinstating. The original cast guard irons were very fragile as well and I've been able to dispense with those as the frames incorporate them.
Last edited by jwealleans on Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
earlswood nob
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 1669
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:23 am
Location: Surrey

Re: West End Workbench

Post by earlswood nob »

Good morning all

Looking good, JW, and like many postings on here, makes me want to build my spare Atlantic. However, I must keep my nose to the grindstone with the 0-6-0's.

AGW does some small 2mm bearings (4M65S) which I find useful for bushing tender frames.

Earlswood nob
drmditch

Re: West End Workbench

Post by drmditch »

Please excuse an 'ignorant' request.
Could you send me details for AGW, because I don't think I've heard of them before.
jwealleans
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 4272
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:46 am

Re: West End Workbench

Post by jwealleans »

Morning David,

AGW=Alan Gibson Workshop.
drmditch

Re: West End Workbench

Post by drmditch »

Of course!
Many thanks.
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Dave
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 1731
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:33 pm
Location: Centre of the known universe York

Re: West End Workbench

Post by Dave »

Glad you asked that (AGW) had me foxed...dow!.

Looking good Jonathan, you make it all look so easy.
Pebbles
GER D14 4-4-0 'Claud Hamilton'
Posts: 355
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:26 pm

Re: West End Workbench

Post by Pebbles »

The DJH C1 and C2 both have quite significant dimensional issues. One manifestation is the deep tender frames resulting in a deeper buffer beam to keep the buffer high at an acceptable level.
Woodcock29
GNR C1 4-4-2
Posts: 706
Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:59 am
Location: South Australia

Re: West End Workbench

Post by Woodcock29 »

My understanding of the dimensional issues with the DJH C1 and C2 is that the engines themselves are actually made to 4.25mm scale as a consequence of an accidental scaling up of the whole loco from the lengthened driving wheelbase that was necessary when the design work for the first kit was being developed. Can't remember where I read this. Can anyone confirm this?

When I built my C2 I shortened and narrowed the footplate to make it the right length - this probably introduced other errors?

I have deliberately not built the DJH C1 kit I have because of the significantly oversize boiler/smokebox.

Woodcock29
earlswood nob
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 1669
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:23 am
Location: Surrey

Re: West End Workbench

Post by earlswood nob »

Good morning all

Very interesting, Woodcock, as I've often thought that the DJH Atlantics' wheelbase looked too long.

I didn't for one moment think the whole loco could be overscale.

Earlswood nob
LNER4479
GER D14 4-4-0 'Claud Hamilton'
Posts: 388
Joined: Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:12 am
Location: 51A

Re: West End Workbench

Post by LNER4479 »

Yikes - a C1 on steroids. Is Grantham's station footbridge safe, I ask myself... :shock:
(recreating pre-war Grantham in model form http://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9076.
Forthcoming exhibition appearances: Newcastle (Nov 2023); York (Easter 2024); Bristol (May 2024)
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Atlantic 3279
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 6632
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Location: 2850, 245

Re: West End Workbench

Post by Atlantic 3279 »

Time I put my model against the Isinglass drawing I think.....
Most subjects, models and techniques covered in this thread are now listed in various categories on page1

Dec. 2018: Almost all images that disappeared from my own thread following loss of free remote hosting are now restored.
jwealleans
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 4272
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:46 am

Re: West End Workbench

Post by jwealleans »

Once you've done that, try doing it again over a barrier and 3' away from the loco (which can be moving). If it looks like a duck.....

Not that I endorse wilful inaccuracy in any way, but Graeme's DJH C1 is as good looking a model of one as I've seen and doesn't shout 'wrong' when you see it on the layout.
earlswood nob
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 1669
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:23 am
Location: Surrey

Re: West End Workbench

Post by earlswood nob »

G'day all

I've always thought the gap between the driving wheels looked too large, but the loco always looked OK.

I wrongly assumed that DJH, like GEM with the D21, made the wheelbase too long.

I only discovered that the D21 wheelbase was too long, when I made a scale length chassis. Then a modeller on here informed me that it was 2mm too long over the splashers.

Like the majority of modellers on here, I've been bitten by the bug of trying to get a model as accurate as possible, to the limits of my modest ability. However, as JW asks; how many can see the inaccuracies at a distance of three feet?

Earlswood nob
jwealleans
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 4272
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:46 am

Re: West End Workbench

Post by jwealleans »

Just a little progress last night - i didn't think anyone would want pictures pf paint drying.

I put the WSM chassis together last night. The wires will need rerouting once the flywheel is fitted - I have a friend turning the bore out to 2mm at the moment as i had acquired a number with 1.5mm holes. The gearbox is a RoadRunner Plus with the pivoting section loctited in the vertical position.

Image

The pony wheels on this kit were the right size - you can see how much smaller the AGW bogie wheels are to clear the front end.
Last edited by jwealleans on Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Woodcock29
GNR C1 4-4-2
Posts: 706
Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:59 am
Location: South Australia

Re: West End Workbench

Post by Woodcock29 »

Hi Graeme

I have the Isinglass drawing and have just measured some of the kit parts against the drawing. The footplate is 4.5mm too long and 1.5mm too wide. The smokebox is about right, the firebox is 1.5mm too short and the boiler is 2.5mm too long meaning overall it is about 1 mm too long - okay so that's not too bad. However the boiler is also about 1.2mm too big in diameter and that is probably the one dimension that makes it look too big when compared to a pacific such as a Gresley A1. Interestingly the cab is about right.

The driving wheel base measures about 28.7mm and was always going to have to be too long to accommodate model flanges if the driving wheel diameter is about correct, compared to 27.3mm (6'10") on the prototype.

In getting out the Isinglass drawing I have found the source of the comment that it is built to 4.25mm scale. The late John Edgson said in his covering letter with his Isinglass drawing, dated 22/10/2003 said: "I know your problem with the DJH Atlantic Kits and this has caused much anger within LNER modellers. What happened is that they contracted out to a well known professional modeller the making of the masters, giving him my drawings. As the kit was to take 26mm Romford drivers at 4mm scale the 6'10" centres were too tight. He then decided what was the minimum centres that could be used and found out what the scale size was. He then built the kit to this scale, ie 4.25mm to the foot. This might be alright as a display model, but he forgot that the structure gauges of a layout of 4mm would infringe upon the resultant engine."

I haven't done the calcs to see how close it is to 4.25mm scale but it seems to me that there are significant inconsistencies to the scale to which the kit is actually made. There have also been comments in this thread about the tender height, although my C2 doesn't appear to be significantly to high at buffer level.

To me the overscale is not so obvious on the C2 if the footplate is shortened and narrowed, although the cylinders will then stick out a bit far but I can live with that.

It will be really interesting to see how the Bachmann/NRM C1 looks when it arrives compared to my DJH kit of parts. I was intending to sell the DJH kit if I can but I might keep it. Markets for such kits here in Australia are few and far between and I'm not sure I can be bothered selling it on eBay. Possibly the boiler can be narrowed by slotting it and the smokebox along the bottom and squeezing them in a bit. I wish I hadn't dismantled my old Ks C1 as I think that was about right in size even if a bit crude - I eventually plan to rebuild that as your namesake in late 1930s guise - but I have probably told you that on one of my visits. I have been collecting valve gear parts for that from a range of kit sources.

Regards

Woodcock29
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