Random thought

[giner]

Just watching a few snowflakes in the air, and a thought struck me (no physical damage done).

Anyway, in the UK we always called them 'carriages', no, not the snowflakes. But, a purpose-built carriage, be it for buffet, dining, observation, dynamometer, etc., suddenly gets labelled a 'car', as in north America or elsewhere. Wonder why?

[Mickey]

Still used to this day on the former GE lines out of Liverpool Street and also on the LT&S route out of Fenchurch Street is the term 'empty cars' for a set of empty EMUs by signaller's & controller's a like plus also on London Underground lines they have always referred to there train sets officially as 'cars' rather then carriages due to i believe an early American backer who originally put up his own money to build a couple of the deep level London underground lines back in the early 1900s.

[Solario]

Charles Yerkes was the American who had involvement with expanding the London underground. Similarly, the GER had an American General Manager - Henry Thornton (see GER write up on this website).

[giner]

Thanks gents. So, the almighty $$$$ were at work on our railways long ago. But even though those American guys only had a pretty minor involvement in the overall picture of UK railway companies, it still strikes me as a bit odd how the word 'car' came to be used in certain instances.

Maybe I should go watch a few more snowflakes. Oh wait, the sun's shining this morning. September in Alberta for ya.

[StevieG]

For as long as I have been involved with the railway in the UK (just over 50 years), I'd just mention that the description 'coach' has also been common, well, on WR and ER lines at least, and interchangeably with 'carriage' it might be said.

I agree with Micky's observation that, on former GER and LT&SR lines, ECS are called 'empty cars' or even just 'the cars'* [or could it even be, or have originated as, 'carrs', as a contraction of carriages?].

Yet of course, aside from (and alongside) use of 'carriages' and 'coaches' for hauled trains, in my living memory at least, I have only known all multiple-unit trains described as 2-car, 3-car, 4-car, etc.
But then again, wasn't it the American influence including Mr. Yerkes's, that brought the multiple-unit concept into this country for their London underground railways?

* - A wryly amusing 1980s anecdote on that area-specific use of this term, which went something akin to : A signalman at Stratford or Forest Gate box must have been somehow alerted, on a weekday mid-evening, to one or more '.... door(s) open on the cars' seemingly without the specifics of which train it was.
So word apparently was that all actual, or what might have appeared like, Class 5 trains in the area got stopped sooner or later in search of the offending door(s).
But through all these activities, a train carrying Ford vehicles from Dagenham, 4L30 to Wrenthorpe perhaps, continued through the area and on towards Dalston, en route for Finsbury Park for the ECML, unhindered.
Eventually Kings Cross PSB received a call from the Western Jct. box (Dalston) signalman explaining that the already described-forward car train was being delayed there, as he had stopped it after Stratford outlined the goings on, and that nothing had been found on any coaching stock trains, and it had been deduced (& the signalman at Dalston had now seen) that the cause of the vague 'door(s?) open' report had been in connection with motor car door(s) on 'the cars' train.

[Mickey]

As far as i can recall ECS trains on the GN were always referred to as 'empties' i don't recall them ever being referred to as 'empty cars' that was GE terminology.

I suspect that the terminology 'cars' was adopted on the GE section out of Liverpool Street was when the route was electrified out to Essex in the late 1940s and basically stuck.

[StevieG]

" As far as i can recall ECS trains on the GN were always referred to as 'empties' i don't recall them ever being referred to as 'empty cars' that was GE terminology. .... "

Completely agree Micky.
I made no reference to ECS on 'the GN' ; where, in my experience, the usual term was 'empty stock', so I suppose sometimes that might even have been shortened to just 'the stock', but I don't recall hearing that.

[Mickey]

" As far as i can recall ECS trains on the GN were always referred to as 'empties' i don't recall them ever being referred to as 'empty cars' that was GE terminology. .... "

Completely agree Micky.
I made no reference to ECS on 'the GN' ; where, in my experience, the usual term was 'empty stock', so I suppose sometimes that might even have been shortened to just 'the stock', but I don't recall hearing that.

I do recall Dave Tilbury (relief signalman) when working Welwyn Garden City one day back in the early 1970s referring to a set of ECS as "Empty Stoking Cock" but i suspect that terminology belonged to Dave and wasn't in general useage on the GN at that time.

B.R. Mk1 Restaurant & Pantry vehicles were still known as Restaurant & Pantry cars into the 1970s as well as the obvious Pullman cars that were still knocking around at that time as well.

[third-rail]

South gosforth shed was always refered to as car sheds

[third-rail]

South gosforth shed was always known as a car shed, l am not sure but I think it was also on the train destination blind.
l was always under the impression that self propelled coaches where always cars.

[52D]

I thought Car was cross over from Tramway terminology, I always remember 52J being car sheds.

[Autocar Publicity]

I wonder if it comes from Pullman cars? If Pullmans were the first carriages to be something a bit special and offer on train refreshments, they may have set a precedent for other, special vehicles? Pure speculation but may be a possibility?

In some cases, especially re observation vehicles, I'm used to thinking of them and calling them observation saloons, also occasionally dining and inspection saloons.

[StevieG]

" .... I do recall Dave Tilbury (relief signalman) when working Welwyn Garden City one day back in the early 1970s referring to a set of ECS as "Empty Stoking Cock" but i suspect that terminology belonged to Dave and wasn't in general useage on the GN at that time. .... "

What you're almost (I think) remembering correctly Micky, was, I'm sure, a spoonerism, being "Empty Stoaching Cock".

[giner]

Wow, fascinating conversation gents, and it was only a random thought . My own take on this coincides with AP's re. Pullman cars. They must've been quite an eye-opener when they first appeared on British metals.

[Mickey]

My own take on this coincides with AP's re. Pullman cars. They must've been quite an eye-opener when they first appeared on British metals.

They always looked special giner even the Pullman cars in there later form built in B.R. days and still running in the early 1970s out of Kings Cross painted in there chocolate & cream livery.

They also looked good behind that Hawker Siddeley's diesel loco HS4000 KESTREL painted in a similar livery in 1969-70.

As for the terminology 'cars' thats a G.E. 'Sweedy' word.