Coaches in BR livery, when?

[1H was 2E]

Looking for something totally different *(and reinforcing once again that everything is recorded, you just have to find it); September 1954 R.O.

LNER Coaches built since grouping were still being turned out of Doncaster and York works in varnished teak livery as recently as the end of 1953. Judging by the large number of coaches on the E and NE regions still in LNER livery, it would seem that revarnishing is still done at these works sometimes .........Conversely, Stratford, Cowlairs and Inverurie have used the standard colours since they were introduced, without exception but pregroup types at Stratford. .......... Doncaster, Stratford and York still paint practically all pregroup stocks brown.

It also mentions that on the LMR and WR corridor stock (apart from LM pregroup) in other than red-and-cream is a rarity (obviously at that time)

[65447]

Given that LNER stock was still being built up to 1953, it is likely that re-varnishing took place as an interim maintenance activity, with repainting in BR crimson or crimson and cream only taking place on reaching the full repainting date as recorded on the solebar (or end) of the vehicle in question. The exceptions to this rule would almost certainly be the stock used in named and principal expresses.

This would be akin to the E or SC (or other) prefix being applied to the LNER-style running number. That did not necessitate or wait for a full repaint either.

[sawdust]

This image shows the crimson and cream style normally used on Gresley stock - note the cream band below the bodylights. Also note the freshly painted black gutter:

Please note that is not a gutter (it has a chamfered top) but is described as the cornice on drawings and was referred to as the muck cornice by the late Les Browning, former chargehand coach builder at Doncaster.

Sawdust.

[sawdust]

This photo of Starbeck shows an interesting mix of liveries and LNER coaches.

http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/image/eaw044401

Sawdust.

[1H was 2E]

Given that LNER stock was still being built up to 1953, it is likely that re-varnishing took place as an interim maintenance activity, with repainting in BR crimson or crimson and cream only taking place on reaching the full repainting date as recorded on the solebar (or end) of the vehicle in question.

I'm a bit puzzled. I accept that revarnishing would be the intermediate stage before a full repaint, so that stock built in, say, 1948 could (just about) have a planned revarnish in 1953; but of course stock built from soon after nationalisation would be turned out in red and cream; and LNER stock built between say 1945 and nationalisation would surely be steel panelled with a scumble type painted finish resembling teak. Paint on the latter would surely be very similar in condition to that on LMS and GW coaches of the same period.

Incidentally, I'm interested in the reference to "repaint date" carried on the vehicle. There is also reference in old magazines to a "scrapping date" being carried. Was this the same as the date preceded by "S.P." (when shopping proposal forms had to be completed)? Or was the latter a later innovation - perhaps from an LMS practice?

Of course one of the problems with identifying coach livery in the 50's was that, before washing plants and Tepol, the livery of a coach was covered by a thick layer of dirt/soot - particularly wooden bodied NPCCS!

[Bill Bedford]

I'm a bit puzzled. I accept that revarnishing would be the intermediate stage before a full repaint, so that stock built in, say, 1948 could (just about) have a planned revarnish in 1953; but of course stock built from soon after nationalisation would be turned out in red and cream; and LNER stock built between say 1945 and nationalisation would surely be steel panelled with a scumble type painted finish resembling teak.

It's not the build date that's important, but the last shopping date before the BR liveries were introduced. Carriages shopped before the new liveries were introduced in 1949, whenever the were built, would have kept their teak finish for 5-7 years before being given the new liveries.

[Chris Grouse]

First repainting into the new BR crimson & cream or plain crimson liveries would be after the official decision on the liveries during 1949, and then following the change to maroon livery during 1956. However there is evidence of carriages still in the varnished teak livery in the late 1950s, and it is possible that some never received a BR livery before withdrawal c1960. The pre-Grouping stock was most likely finished in the carriage brown livery (wartime economy measure) and did not, with certain exceptions, ever receive any BR livery.

.

Any idea where I can get carriage brown to paint my coaches?

Chris

[Bill Bedford]

Use wagon bauxite with a gloss varnish.

[JASd17]

I have noticed a photo on ebay which shows a GNR corridor carriage still in teak or brown finish. The photo is taken at Scarborough and dated June 1954.

John

[1H was 2E]

Maybe my previous post, from a contemporary report of the situation in the summer of 1954, was not as clear as it might have been due to my wish for brevity; but at that time Doncaster, Stratford and York were still repainting pre-group stock in brown. By way of further erudition, at that time the majority (in the words of the contemporary report) of teak stock running on the ER and NER was still in teak, still being re-varnished at that time. By contrast, LNER and pregroup stock on the ScR had been repainted in red or red/cream from when that livery was introduced and former LMS and GWR stock on the system was repainted, rather than retaining the pre-nationalisation livery re-varnished, again from the introduction of BR livery.
These contemporary reports are valuable; what might be expected to happen in theory does not always apply.

[1H was 2E]

Just found an RCTS reference to Gresley SK Sc12972E that finally lost its teak livery when overhauled at Cowlairs in January 1962; this seems to go against the previous theory that, after nationalisation, English works revarnished but Scottish ones repainted! Perhaps its overhaul coincided with a transfer North. Probably, it didn't last long in maroon......