West End Workbench

[LNER4479]

Great work JW (and so speedy too!) Beginning to look the part now...
(hurrah! I'm no longer an L1 - 100th post)

[Atlantic 3279]

Quintessential.

[JASd17]

Jonathan,

I have a cupboard full of kits, actually it is more than one cupboard. If you could help.....

Never mind the above, great to see the 'Leeds Diner' coming together.

How are you going to do the painted roof boards?

Agreed LNER4479, being a Thompson tank is a trial. But at least you know what colour you are painted; good luck with the hoppers Atlantic 3279.

John

[earlswood nob]

Good morning all on a foggy morning in Surrey

I find this very interesting as I didn't know of the Dining quint-art set until JW started the build.

I get to know more things about the LNER from this forum, than I would be merely reading books.

Earlswood nob

[Atlantic 3279]

The Quint does manage to appear in a few books, but certainly this site often provides a direct route to information which might in the past only have been found by chance if looking at books bought or borrowed "blind". For instance, thanks to one kind gentleman who happened to have the right book, one that I don't own, and who definitely "knows his onions", as of yesterday I have information to indicate that the hopper bodies on my Appleby-Frodingham wagons were black rather than red-brown or maroon, even if the solebars and headstocks were clearly not black.

[jwealleans]

Well thank you, chaps. I'm enjoying putting this together, I have to say. There aren't too many photographs but I have managed to extract some from the NRM which are helping and Isinglass do a set of drawings.

The destination boards are going to be a challenge in their own right. I haven't yet decided how to tackle those although I have some ideas. For those who don't know, the Quint was built to the absolute limit of the GN loading gauge, which was one reason it only ever ran London - Leeds. The destination boards were painted onto the roof and remained so throughout its life. I have heard a theory that they had to be painted to remain in gauge, but I don't know if that is right. They were painted in coaching lettering style on a brown background and I believe they may have remained in the GN shaded letters throughout the LNER period as well (can anyone comment on that?)

[LNER4479]

I believe both your suppositions to be correct. I will check my reference books tonight for confirmation (or otherwise).

[drmditch]

This is a bit far south for me, but I'm sure I've got a picture somewhere in my library showing the painted destinations.

I've found two. I'm sure you've got Michael Harris 'GNR and ECJS Carriages from 1905'. Plate 105 (for those who haven't got the book) shows the set as built, with white roofs with 'Kings Cross & Leeds' in shaded letters on a darker block background. There is also a good picture in LNER days in page 81 of Dr Geoffrey Hughes biography of Sir Nigel Gresley. The roof appears to be weathered grey; the block behind the lettering is a contrasted colour, apparently lighter in shade (but is this just a function of film/photography?). The caption states that the lettering was gold shaded red.

I can't find the picture I'm sure I've seen somewhere, taken from an over-bridge with the set passing on a curve beneath. Of course, my memory being what it is, I suppose I could be confusing it with one of the streamliners. I think the initial 'Silver Jubilee' had its name painted on the coach roofs?

Bother - I'll have to keep looking now!

[2512silverfox]

Both Brown and Edgson concur that the original GN destination markings were in slightly elongated gold serif letters with the traditional GN blue shading on a red background, and stayed so until the accident which saw the end of the set in 1954. The blokes in the paint shop at Doncaster (C1965) were pretty sure that the original painted destinations were 'tarted up' rather than repainted and the colours became unique.

I have a good building photo of the boards if you wish Jonathan; just let me know. Building a scratch version of the set, I have to tackle the same problem in due course and intend to produce one of them in gouache quite large and photo reduce and print to 4mm in multiple.

[earlswood nob]

I found the following in a thread of three years ago:

Earlswood nob

For those that know Malcolm Crawley (Doncaster Premium Apprentice 1947) I received the following reply from him just now:

"I cannot answer your question with any completeness but I do have a clear recollection of the Kings Cross-Leeds restaurant quint emerging from shops with red oxide roof and with the destination boards painted on to the roof as distinct from separate items. I think that this would have been post-1947 as I think I saw it from the works footbridge, but I may have been on a schoolboy visit to the works."

Mike

Re GN Quint. Malcolm is quite right about the destination boards which were GN in design and colour right into BR livery, but according to my notes from Dougie Haines (paintshop foreman) roof colour had reverted to white by then, although the roof had a white or red lead undercoat. Possibility that as this was at the plant, and final white coat had yet to be applied?

Going back to the Quint set and the destination boards. The answer to Mikes query is that the boards were not repainted and had not been since 1922 thus the continuation of the non-standard finish of the boards. My understanding is that the boards, which were a work of art in themselves, were carefully cleaned and revarnished each time the set went into the Plant for an overhaul.

[jwealleans]

That's very helpful, EN and may be where I got the idea from in the first place.

David - if you track down that other picture I'd be pleased to know where it is as I've located all the sources Rupert mentions in the instructions but am always happy to see more, especially in LNER days.

[Atlantic 3279]

I have to tackle the same problem in due course and intend to produce one of them in gouache quite large and photo reduce and print to 4mm in multiple.

I'm glad there's somebody other than me who still thinks in terms of hand produced oversize artwork and photo reduction. I have one or two items produced by means of REAL photography, carefully planned and scaled down, with commercial lab printing some years ago and there's no hint of fading, unlike the rapid deterioration that can occur with computer print outs.

[earlswood nob]

Atlantic 3279 wrote:
I'm glad there's somebody other than me who still thinks in terms of hand produced oversize artwork and photo reduction. I have one or two items produced by means of REAL photography, carefully planned and scaled down

I didn't think there was another way to produce 4mm lettering, but I'm a traditionalist, which is one reason I like steam railways especially the LNER.

Earlswood nob

[65447]

I found the following in a thread of three years ago:

Earlswood nob

For those that know Malcolm Crawley (Doncaster Premium Apprentice 1947) I received the following reply from him just now:

"I cannot answer your question with any completeness but I do have a clear recollection of the Kings Cross-Leeds restaurant quint emerging from shops with red oxide roof and with the destination boards painted on to the roof as distinct from separate items. I think that this would have been post-1947 as I think I saw it from the works footbridge, but I may have been on a schoolboy visit to the works."

Mike

Re GN Quint. Malcolm is quite right about the destination boards which were GN in design and colour right into BR livery, but according to my notes from Dougie Haines (paintshop foreman) roof colour had reverted to white by then, although the roof had a white or red lead undercoat. Possibility that as this was at the plant, and final white coat had yet to be applied?

Going back to the Quint set and the destination boards. The answer to Mikes query is that the boards were not repainted and had not been since 1922 thus the continuation of the non-standard finish of the boards. My understanding is that the boards, which were a work of art in themselves, were carefully cleaned and revarnished each time the set went into the Plant for an overhaul.

That's from my post! I asked Malcolm directly when the query came up on this forum and, bless him, he answered straight away.

[jwealleans]

I have now put my hands on a copy of Geoffrey Hughes' book as referenced by David above. The picture shows the north end of the train, the BTK, which is the carriage of which I have the fewest pictures. It is credited to 'EB Collins' - does anyone know who might hold his collection? Online searching last night was not terribly fruitful.