The LNER Encyclopedia

Definitely non-LNER this - its a question that I would have posted on the LMS forum but that seems to have been dead for a while now. (If anyone can suggest more suitable places to ask I'm all ears).

I'm looking for information on the motive power used on Perth-Euston services in the 1960s. The 1961/2 schedules show the Glasgow-Euston services as diesel-hauled but not the Perths.

At that time the largest locomotives allocated to Perth were Black 5s and Standard 5s and I very much doubt these were working the heavy Perth expresses (they weren't scheduled to be banked over Beattock). So I presume they were worked by locomotives from the English end (or, less likely, Polmadie). Kingmoor certainly had a handful of Coronations and Clans at this date and I don't really know what traffic the Coronations would have been working given the loss of the crack express work to diesels.

None of the books I have with photographs of trains north of Carlisle positively identify any Perth passenger services so any help would be appreciated.

John

From memory, I cannot find the details yet in the very early 60's there was a regular working with Crewe pacifics from that town right through to Perth. They returned south on a similar working reaching back to Crewe approx 25 hours after leaving it. Maybe not a high milage today with what the east coast electric locomotives do but 50 years ago a very creditable performance.

have a look on

http://www.brdatabase.info/index.php

and just have a look for the fleet of locomotives that were shedded at perth or a location close by

but in mind the locomotives could of been duchesses, princess royals or royal scots for primary expresses but you could run the duchesses or princesses to say a diesel failed


for goods theres locomotives such as stanier 5's, STD 5's, 8F's and 9F's

Thanks for the responses, both. Yes, it's entirely possible (and likely) that Crewe engines occasionally worked through to Perth but that wouldn't be typical as the two different Regions wouldn't have liked giving away their coal to the other one!

Unless the site referred to differs from the data I have, there was nothing larger than a Class 5 allocated to Perth for passenger duties at the time I'm looking at, nor for freight come to that. So I am satisfied Perth did not have any regular involvement with these services.

Wootang, when you say motive power could have been "Duchesses, Princess Royals or Royal Scots" is this just an opinion or based on photographic or evidence? The Perth services would have been allocated a specific type (based on power) and this is the very question I am looking for an answer to. From photographs I have established the normal motive power on the various Glasgow services but none of my books show any Perth expresses. I'm sure pictures are out there somewhere.

Best regards,

John

John,

There is quite a bit of photographic evidence that Coronations worked the Euston-Perth trains during this period as well as some of the heavier express freight/parcels services that worked to and from the area.

Polmadie examples would be very common and as Carlisle built up its allocation, these would creep in too. Crewe had a special link (called the Perth Link) with an odd working on which the Crewe pacific would be held on Perth shed to await the return working for its incoming crew on the following day. It isn't unknown for the odd London pacific to work there, although it wouldn't have it's London crew!

The usual practise, apart from the examples mentioned above, seemed to involve changing engines at Carlisle or at least the trains involved were timed to give the opportunity to do so.

The Polmadie Pacifics visited Perth on these workings until the last Scottish examples were withdrawn in late 1963.

Andy.

Appreciated, Andy.

The LMS forum burst back into life yesterday so I asked there too - a response there I have just seen suggests the workings were normally Crewe-based Coronations through to Perth but like you I had noticed there was time allowance for engine change at Carlisle.

Thanks to everybody for their help on this.

John

The use of Crewe Pacifics (with numbers) on these turns and info on engine changes for Euston at Carlisle during the fifties is well covered in Pete Piccolo Johnsons autobiography "Through the Links at Crewe' -two volumes.I would think the turns remained until dieselisation.

ten ten wrote:The use of Crewe Pacifics (with numbers) on these turns and info on engine changes for Euston at Carlisle during the fifties is well covered in Pete Piccolo Johnsons autobiography "Through the Links at Crewe' -two volumes.I would think the turns remained until dieselisation.

Thanks for that - I'll keep a look out for that book.

John

The autobiography is from a firemans point of view,and the variety of work from the crew sheds,trouble is I cant remember which volume covered the Perths!
They were soft covered,published by Bradford Barton in the seventies.