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Strange events at Hertford North
Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:11 am
by Mr Bunt
What's happening here then?
The 16:33 Moorgate is waiting in platform 3 at Hertford North, the 16:39 Stevenage (which I'm waiting for) has yet to arrive then at 16:31 313039 runs in wrong line from the carriage sidings showing "Moorgate" on its London end.
Anyone got any ideas?
Re: Strange events at Hertford North
Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:37 am
by R. pike
I asked the question on my East Coast email group and received this reply from someone who knows what's going on..
''That is 5K75 ECS from the carriage sidings to Moorgate. The driver would have changed the destination blind when he changed ends''.
Re: Strange events at Hertford North
Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 11:58 am
by Mickey
Deleted
Re: Strange events at Hertford North
Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:36 pm
by Mr Bunt
R. pike wrote:I asked the question on my East Coast email group and received this reply from someone who knows what's going on..
''That is 5K75 ECS from the carriage sidings to Moorgate. The driver would have changed the destination blind when he changed ends''.
Thanks for the info. I catch the 16:39 HFN - SVG regularly and had never seen the ECS pull in before, hence my question.
Re: Strange events at Hertford North
Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:16 pm
by R. pike
It is a signalled route from the sidings to the limit of shunt on the up main.
Re: Strange events at Hertford North
Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:08 pm
by StevieG
R. pike wrote:It is a signalled route from the sidings to the limit of shunt on the up main.
....And it has been available ever since the present signalling was put in during 1971, as has the similar route from the Up line shunt signal at the south crossover, parallel with the adjacent signal from the Up Sidings, straight back into the platform and the same Limit Of Shunt.
The Limit Of Shunt would have originally been a board (
a floodlit [just], square white sign bearing the words LIMIT OF SHUNT [on later signalling diagrams, instead shown as a white square containing a St. Andrews Cross] : But by now it is probably a Limit Of Shunt signal [in appearance, much like a position-light shunt signal as common in colour-light signlling areas, but which cannot show a 'Proceed' indication; so having only two red lights, horizontally beside each other, always lit; and may also have a number plate with an "LOS" suffix.] ).
So while such routeing of a movement as described in the OP here would probably have been considered unconventional when Hertford North's mechanical signalling was installed around 1923/4
(unless there was a signalled route over to the 'right' [Down] line at the other end of the platform: At Hert.N., there was a North trailing crossover, but it was unsignalled and ground frame-worked), it's been a far from uncommon sort of provision where physically possible and useful, for over 40 years.
Re: Strange events at Hertford North
Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:27 am
by Mickey
Deleted
Re: Strange events at Hertford North
Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:03 pm
by StevieG
Micky wrote:Dave Cockle is probably the best bloke to know about the Hertford north s/box regulations seeing that he worked the box.
Following on from Stevie's post-
Pre-colour light signalling of 1973-
I presume that Hertford north's up home signal on the up line was on the approach to the station and the Limit of Shunt board would have been 'inside' the home signal. In that case the Hertford north signalman before doing that move would have had to 'Block back inside home signal' (2-4 bell) back to Langley Junction box and once aknowledged place the block needle to TRAIN ON LINE.
If the Limit of Shunt board was outside (on the approach to Hertford north's up home signal) to do that same move the Hertford north signalman would have to 'Block back outside home signal' (3-3 bell) back to Langley Junction box and once acknowledged place the block needle back to TRAIN ON LINE.
Once the move had been completed 'Obstruction removed' (2-1 bell) would be sent back to Langley Junction box and once acknowledged place the block needle back to LINE BLOCKED or NORMAL.
It wasn't really either of those cases Micky: Perhaps thanks to the layout and signalling having been designed/installed in slightly modern times compared to most GN signalling, at around the time of the 1922/23 GNR/L&NER changeover, the arrangements were a bit more comprehensive.
The LOS board was
inside a home signal, but it was
Second Home 48, 450 yards from the box, with a First Home (49) further out by the proper Clearing Point distance of 440 yds., so it was 890 yds. away
*, and so a move could be made as far as the LOS without needing to liaise with the 'Bobby' at the box in rear at all.
* -
(No wonder the Up Distant 50 was a whopping 2,367 yds. away, yet wasn't too bad a pull [yes, it was mechanical] considering the distance involved).
Re: Strange events at Hertford North
Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:02 pm
by Mickey
Deleted
Re: Strange events at Hertford North
Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:20 pm
by StevieG
Micky wrote: " .... Interesting box Hertford north i always thought that it looked quite simular to but a smaller version of the box at Welwyn Garden City plus Langley Junction box also looked simular to Hertford north as well (probably the same contractor built all 3 s/boxes?). "
I suppose that is a possibility : All three were a bit younger than most GN boxes in London and Herts.
WGC About 1926?, Hert.North about three years earlier.
The least obvious would be Langley, but I'm fairly sure I heard years ago, that prior to works for the extension of the 'Enfield' (extended) Branch, from Cuffley to Langley
(as a 'Goods; Single Line (around 1912?, worked by key token) There was a Langley box a bit further north, for the sidings only; and that as the single line first arrived at the main line by connecting with the sidings (along the present day Up Slow --> Up Hertford connection aligment I presume), there was thought to have been some sort of overhead cross-track wire-suspended contraption,
(like in some old department stores' that conveyed cylinders of cash/change/receipts between the various counters and a central cash office) to run the token from the box (on the Down side) over to the footplate-men on the Up side for the connection to the branch.