London Midland locos in York 1959

[Tom F]

Evening Gents

I'm after info on the different types of London Midland locos that could be seeing in 1959 at York. I'm guessing Black 5s, 8Fs and Crabs, plus Jubilees, Scots and Patriots.

If anyone can direct me to books on the subject that would be great, I have Bellcode books Return to York which is very good, but all pictures are post 1960, and wasn't sure pre 1960 if the Ex LMS locos would be maybe less rare.

Cheers

Tom

[Solario]

Your list is a pretty fair assessment.

Other types -

Ivatt "4MT" 2-6-0
Ivatt "2MT" 2-6-0
Jinties ( station pilots for a while)

In my Ken Hoole book, "Rail Centres:York" there is a picture of a "4F" 0-6-0 dated 1954, it would have been conceivable for the type to be still visiting in 1959 but I cannot recollect seeing one. I wondered about the 2-6-2 and 2-6-4 tanks, again I have no memories of seeing one but they certainly would have been around earlier in the 1950s.

Rather than looking for books, I think the better approach may be obtaining some magazines, maybe "Backtrack" would have some articles, or magazines dating from 1959, some of which had listings of unusual visitors to various locations.

The web site -
http://www.steamindex.com/
precises some magazines which may help you find the right ones.

It would be interesting to know why you are interested. I have a reasonable picture of a Patriot in the shed yard, if that is any use.

[Tom F]

Your list is a pretty fair assessment.

Other types -

Ivatt "4MT" 2-6-0
Ivatt "2MT" 2-6-0
Jinties ( station pilots for a while)

In my Ken Hoole book, "Rail Centres:York" there is a picture of a "4F" 0-6-0 dated 1954, it would have been conceivable for the type to be still visiting in 1959 but I cannot recollect seeing one. I wondered about the 2-6-2 and 2-6-4 tanks, again I have no memories of seeing one but they certainly would have been around earlier in the 1950s.

Rather than looking for books, I think the better approach may be obtaining some magazines, maybe "Backtrack" would have some articles, or magazines dating from 1959, some of which had listings of unusual visitors to various locations.

The web site -
http://www.steamindex.com/
precises some magazines which may help you find the right ones.

It would be interesting to know why you are interested. I have a reasonable picture of a Patriot in the shed yard, if that is any use.

Thanks for Solario

My reason for asking is because of my model railway....although fictional, it is set in the York area in 1959, so I want to get an idea of what locos would be passing over the pennines from the West Riding.

Black 5s I'm sure....would 8Fs?

I have seen pictures of Scots and Pats...but alot of pics are from early 60s.... particular 1962, and I just wondered if 1959....there may have been the slight difference in motive power from the London Midland...i.e less Pats, Scots and Jubs.

Hope that makes sense

Tom

[Beechwood]

York was a major railway centre, thanks to George Hudson - and a number of pre-grouping companies had access to it for long-distance trains. The appearance of LMS locos there would not have been a BR phenomenon - it must already have been common before nationalisation.

[50C]

Bristol (82E) jubilees were regulars on the Bristol-Newcastle trains throughout the 50's until the Peaks took over.The shed also had some unrebuilt Patriots on its books for a while which also operated up to York.We used to cycle the 7 miles from Selby to Church Fenton to see one about 4 pm-Galatea(45699) seemed to appear most frequently.


50c

[James Brodie]

Dear Sir, The LMS Garratts also worked to York with iron ore trains, we used to take their train forward with either an Austerity(2-8-0) or Q6 and even Green Arrows. Have Crabs been mention? they worked through sometimes on excursions to Saltburn.
Hope this is of some help.
Jim Brodie.

The ore came from Wellingborough direction. jb.

[Solario]

The LMS Garratts also worked to York with iron ore trains

Sadly I never saw a Garratt at York although I know that they used to visit. I think that they would have all gone by 1959

[Tom F]

Thanks chaps.....this is all great info.

What about Royal Scots and Patriots (Rebuilt) and 8Fs?

End whether these diagrams would be any different in 1959 than say in 1961/2.

Tom

[50C]

There were 33 Garratts.The last one in service,47994,was withdrawn in April 1958.The rest were withdrawn during 1955/56 as more 9F's were introduced.I only ever saw one and that was in the loco yard at York one Sunday in the early 1950's

50c

[Solario]

I cannot give you a definitive answer but in my opinion, I am pretty certain that 8Fs would have been regular visitors in 1959. There were plenty shedded not too far away in the West Riding.

I have a notebook which suggests that I saw Scot 46124 in York but I am not sure about the date but would be 1958-63. On the same occasion, I saw Stanier 2-6-0 42981, Ivatt 2-6-0s 43014, 43126, 46480, and Black 5 44756. The Stanier 2-6-0 would be a real rarity in York, but it shows that almost anything could happen.

I think that Scots would not be common and I have no recollection of seeing rebuilt Patriots in York.

What is worth remembering is the summer excursion traffic to the coast (mainly Scarborough), on a weekend a shed would use whatever was available. In Cottingham, Black 5s, Crabs, Jubilees, and Scots could be seen on a summer weekend, especially on a Sunday. So it is certainly not inconceivable that rebuilt Patriots would have appeared occasionally.

As I re-read what I have just written above, I remebered a little book I have called "Scarborough 50 Years ago, 1959 Occurrences". A quick skim through has supplied some more definites and a possible/probable. Some of the trains would have come from the Bridlington line but the two definites were logged as from York
Definites
Stanier 2-6-4T
Fowler 4F 0-6-0

Possibles
Fairburn 2-6-4T - 42085. This arrived with a train from Hertford North, I think that it very likely took over at York

An 8F was recorded on a train from Sheffield but this may well have taken the Selby Driffield line.

I remember looking out for a train that left Hull for York via Beverley around about 8:00am, just before I needed to get ready for school, I would be able to nip down the garden (in Cottingham) to see what was pulling it. Most days it would be a Hull B1 but sometimes it would be a "foreigner", maybe a named B1, not infrequently a Black 5, the occasional Jubilee and Crab.

[Blink Bonny]

OK:

Passenger Trains

Trans-Pennine trains usually changed engines at Leeds until the coming of diseasels so the Edge Hill and Farnley Scots and Patriots would have been fairly uncommon visitors. Indeed, it was more common for the ER loco to work forward to Huddersfield or Wakefield with a special than the other way round. By the time diesel diagrams came in, the Scots and Jubilees were pretty much on their last legs so failures tended to bring on a Black 5 or Standard 5. Having said that, the Jubilees were kinder to their frames and suspensions than the Scots so their withdrawal was quite probably more to do with the bean-counters than their mechanical condition.

The Bristol trains were diagrammed for Jubilees so they were regular visitors. I think that they stayed on the turns until diselisation - "Leander (5690)" is another loco photo'd under that fabuluous roof that springs to mind.

Incidentally, the last L & Y Hughes "Dreadnought" 4-6-0 worked its last train from Manchester (I think) to York and back.

Freight Trains

Remember here that from 1956 or so, the North Eastern region came into being. This brought many changes that included the virtual replacement of Fowler "Austin 7s" and 8Fs with WDs or, as they were known at Mirfield, "Iron Lungs!" Indeed, my local shed, 56D Mirfield, ended up with a very North Eastern feel being allocated quite a few B16s, both Raven and re-builds of both types. Wakefield (56A) almost bcame a WD monopoly. I would think that 8Fs would have been fairly rare visitors once the LNER had disposed of its 06 class. However, the NE region had Black 5s, Ivatt 4s and the like and these would have been more likely to have been true common user engines than more exotic classes.

[ArthurK]

In the late 1940s my cousin and I spent many happy hours at York. I those days LMS locos were common place. Jubilees appeared frequently especially "Galatea". We saw her on nearly every visit. We would have preferred something different! There were appearances of the Garrets. as some one has already mentioned. One not mentioned is the LMS compounds. We saw those on a regular basis. The one the I remember most was 1023 in LMS red. It was stationary but putting out the blackest smoke that I have ever seen!

Arthur

[Solario]

I would think that 8Fs would have been fairly rare visitors once the LNER had disposed of its 06 class.

I beg to differ, I saw 4 8Fs in one day, see below. Maybe not ten a penny but certainly not rare.

I have found another notebook and although the date is not 1959 but 2nd August 1960, I think that it will provide a reasonable idea of what could be seen in 1959. Strangely no Black 5s nor Ivatt 4MTs. Here is the complete list of LMS locos & their home sheds which I saw that day.

42439 4MT (Stanier) Patricroft

45557 Jubilee Derby
45565 Jubilee Holbeck
45719 Jubilee Bristol (Barrow Road)

46480 2MT York

48099 8F Toton
48195 8F Toton
48249 8F Edge Hill
48669 8F Saltley

On a similar occasion in April 1961, there were several Black 5s but only 1 8F.

[neilgow]

From my York notes on a day either in April or May 1960, these ex-LMS numbers may help.

Not in order, just as I saw them:-

45242, 44735, 48303, 45220, 44255, 43042, 48383,44919, 42790, 43944, 48193, 43948, 43096, 48006, 48095, 42639, 44336, 48150, 43014, 44934, 44803, 47448, 44823, 43057, 48666, 45649, 43071, 47607, 47421, 47454, 45717, 48381, 45506, 43079, 44853, 45576, 44002, 42822, 45208, 44804.

From a total of 260 locomotives noted at York that day. I will assume in the station and on shed.

10 Black 5's, 6 8F's, 6 4F's, 2 Crabs, 1 2-6-4T, 5 Ivatt 4's, 1 Patriot, 2 Jubilees, 4 Jinty's.

4th July 1965:- 43138, 42264, 43133, 43097, 43138. 9 LNER engines seen, 16 BR types (WD's & 9F's).

NG

[Solario]

From a total of 260 locomotives noted at York that day

That is one heck of a score for York in a day, can you remember whether it was a week day or otherwise? NG you did very well.

Although I have long since realised that number taking is a bit of a trivial pursuit, especially if detailed records have not been kept (like most of my spotting) I do not regret having had the experience. It has been very nostalgic to look through books of numbers and to remember what the railways were like fifty years ago. Aged from about 11, I used to go off, sometimes on my own, for a day to York, Doncaster or a bit further afield; my parents were obviously comfortable about it, and I never had any problems, I certainly would not want any young members of my family to do the same today.