when steam was being phased out, were any loco's Hidden as part of a national strategic reserve ?. I must admit I have heard this rumour before. Plus there were one or two secret railway locations that I do know of.
Dave
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strategic reserve
Moderators: 52D, Tom F, Rlangham, Atlantic 3279, Blink Bonny, Saint Johnstoun, richard
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daveinstoke
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Colombo
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52A,
I know the Swedish Railway did have a strategic reserve and I believe that they have only recently started scrapping them.
There was talk about a shed full of 8Fs but that was just wishfull thinking. All have been accounted for.
The nearest thing we had to a strategic reserve was Barry Island. There was no danger of the oil for our diesels running out as we had North Sea Oil. The Swedes had no oil, but plenty of wood.
Barry held enough GW engines to run a Sunday Service on the Western Region. There were also enough Bulleid pacifics to run the long distance services on the Southern. Only the Eastern side of the country was not covered, what we needed was a strategic reserve of LNER Pacifics and V2s.
Colombo
I know the Swedish Railway did have a strategic reserve and I believe that they have only recently started scrapping them.
There was talk about a shed full of 8Fs but that was just wishfull thinking. All have been accounted for.
The nearest thing we had to a strategic reserve was Barry Island. There was no danger of the oil for our diesels running out as we had North Sea Oil. The Swedes had no oil, but plenty of wood.
Barry held enough GW engines to run a Sunday Service on the Western Region. There were also enough Bulleid pacifics to run the long distance services on the Southern. Only the Eastern side of the country was not covered, what we needed was a strategic reserve of LNER Pacifics and V2s.
Colombo
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richard
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I'm not sure the history of the Swedish engines, but I think the surviving O7 came from them.
As for the UK: yes wishful thinking. A lot of the civil defence vehicles were sold off during the 1990s. Things like essentially brand new Austin Gipsies & Champs entered the market, as well as some of the better known Green Goddesses. Not one engine entered the market.
The problem with a strategic reserve of steam engines is that the maintenance & coaling/watering infrastructure was scrapped almost as soon as the engines.
Later steam engines also had an increasing number of electrical devices (one argument was that a steam engine could survive a nuclear bomb's electro-magnetic pulse), although these could be disabled. Diesel engines can be protected against EMP (I know my Land Rover was EMP-proofed, although this was a side-effect of RFI-proofing).
Also, where would they be kept? Most of the alledged places were disconnected from the rail network (eg. old army depots), or implausibly based on snippets of railway trivia (eg. Box Tunnel).
I think all of these preservation hobbies have these types of stories. I remember that shortly after the Berlin Wall fell, there were rumours of crated Hurricanes surviving in the former USSR...
Richard
As for the UK: yes wishful thinking. A lot of the civil defence vehicles were sold off during the 1990s. Things like essentially brand new Austin Gipsies & Champs entered the market, as well as some of the better known Green Goddesses. Not one engine entered the market.
The problem with a strategic reserve of steam engines is that the maintenance & coaling/watering infrastructure was scrapped almost as soon as the engines.
Later steam engines also had an increasing number of electrical devices (one argument was that a steam engine could survive a nuclear bomb's electro-magnetic pulse), although these could be disabled. Diesel engines can be protected against EMP (I know my Land Rover was EMP-proofed, although this was a side-effect of RFI-proofing).
Also, where would they be kept? Most of the alledged places were disconnected from the rail network (eg. old army depots), or implausibly based on snippets of railway trivia (eg. Box Tunnel).
I think all of these preservation hobbies have these types of stories. I remember that shortly after the Berlin Wall fell, there were rumours of crated Hurricanes surviving in the former USSR...
Richard
Richard Marsden
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Colombo
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The two 8Fs in the Red Sea were sunk when the Thistlegorm was bombed in 1941. You clearly have seen a head on photo of the loco upright on the sea bottom.
This is one of the ten best "dives" in the world and there a lot of published photos. I recommend that you have a surf around "Thistlegorm". You will see other photographs taken sideways of both locos and everything behind the smokebox and cylinders is missing. The boilers, cab, frames and rear six driving wheels were torn off by the force of the exploding ammunition in no. 4 hold and so far do not appear to have been found.
However the front half of the ship is intact, the holds are full of motor transport and armour. Still lashed onto the deck are the intact Stanier tenders and two water tankers. These locos were bound for Egypt,.
Another seven 8Fs were lost in two other sinkings at that time, these were part of an order for Turkey. Apparently both Germany and Britain were supplying locos to neutral Turkey at the same time.
Richard,
I have not seen anything about the RODs. Are these the Locos on the St Chamond? See: http://www.divernet.com/wrecks/wtour380402.htm. So far I have nothing that identifies the 5 or 6 locos in this wreck off St Ives, which is a very popular dive.
Colombo
This is one of the ten best "dives" in the world and there a lot of published photos. I recommend that you have a surf around "Thistlegorm". You will see other photographs taken sideways of both locos and everything behind the smokebox and cylinders is missing. The boilers, cab, frames and rear six driving wheels were torn off by the force of the exploding ammunition in no. 4 hold and so far do not appear to have been found.
However the front half of the ship is intact, the holds are full of motor transport and armour. Still lashed onto the deck are the intact Stanier tenders and two water tankers. These locos were bound for Egypt,.
Another seven 8Fs were lost in two other sinkings at that time, these were part of an order for Turkey. Apparently both Germany and Britain were supplying locos to neutral Turkey at the same time.
Richard,
I have not seen anything about the RODs. Are these the Locos on the St Chamond? See: http://www.divernet.com/wrecks/wtour380402.htm. So far I have nothing that identifies the 5 or 6 locos in this wreck off St Ives, which is a very popular dive.
Colombo
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richard
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I think it could be the St. Chamond!
I remember reading somewhere about there being some RODs in a ship sunk during WW1. It was either an online news item or listserver posting - but 5 or so years ago...
The location matches as well. My fuzzy memory thought it was the Bristol Channel or approaches.
However, this account describes 4-8-0s
(also found at: http://www.liddiard.demon.co.uk/photoix ... hamond.htm )
Could the diver be mistaken? Did Britain have any 4-8-0 heavy freight tender engines in 1918?
Richard
I remember reading somewhere about there being some RODs in a ship sunk during WW1. It was either an online news item or listserver posting - but 5 or so years ago...
The location matches as well. My fuzzy memory thought it was the Bristol Channel or approaches.
However, this account describes 4-8-0s
(also found at: http://www.liddiard.demon.co.uk/photoix ... hamond.htm )
Could the diver be mistaken? Did Britain have any 4-8-0 heavy freight tender engines in 1918?
Richard
Richard Marsden
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Colombo
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Richard,
The locomotive front wheel photographed has 8 spokes. All the 04s in the Locomotive section have 10 spokes on the front bogie and I think the tenders do as well.
I do recall that at some time I read somewhere that a ship wreck had been found with several tank engines on board that had come from some sort of mineral railway in the South West and were being sent to France during WW1. Does any body remember such an article?
The St Chamond engines do not have to of a type built for a British railway. They could have been newly built for a special purpose by one of British manufacturers.
Alternatively, as there is a loco works called St Chamond in France, which was at war and parts were probably in short supply, could this ship have belonged to the loco works company, having the same name, and could it have been carrying all sorts of parts from British suppliers to France. Could the so called locomotives just be boilers sitting on some sort of multi-wheeled trucks for transportation. Remember visibility is very bad down there.
Oh, and before anybody suggests it, I shall not be available to maker a personal inspection!
Coplomo
The locomotive front wheel photographed has 8 spokes. All the 04s in the Locomotive section have 10 spokes on the front bogie and I think the tenders do as well.
I do recall that at some time I read somewhere that a ship wreck had been found with several tank engines on board that had come from some sort of mineral railway in the South West and were being sent to France during WW1. Does any body remember such an article?
The St Chamond engines do not have to of a type built for a British railway. They could have been newly built for a special purpose by one of British manufacturers.
Alternatively, as there is a loco works called St Chamond in France, which was at war and parts were probably in short supply, could this ship have belonged to the loco works company, having the same name, and could it have been carrying all sorts of parts from British suppliers to France. Could the so called locomotives just be boilers sitting on some sort of multi-wheeled trucks for transportation. Remember visibility is very bad down there.
Oh, and before anybody suggests it, I shall not be available to maker a personal inspection!
Coplomo
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daveinstoke
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I believe the St. Chamond engines may have been SNCF 140C class 2-8-0s. Although originally a French design, with the onset of World War One, the French couldn't deliver the required engines, and had to turn to British builders to construct the class. NBL built 180, and Nasmyth Wilson built 20.
Slowly building a J27...
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52D
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Engines lost at sea
I remember a rumour of ex GWR Dean goods engines being lost at sea presumably in the channel en route to France.Can anyone confirm.
See also the thread on war time engine losses.
See also the thread on war time engine losses.
Hi interested in the area served by 52D. also researching colliery wagonways from same area.
Mentioning the strategic reserve in Sweden.
The most notable survivor, for UK enthusiasts, of that collection of engines was the WD 90775 ? now at the KWVR and steamed last month. This was returned to the UK in the 70s in Swedish form but was identifiable as being a WD. It has been given a new number 1 after the previous series.
One other engine was meant to return to the UK as well but was cut in Sweden in error. This was I believe in the late 70s as well. Giving the impression that the whole reserve fleet was to be cut as well.
Can anyone confirm this?
The most notable survivor, for UK enthusiasts, of that collection of engines was the WD 90775 ? now at the KWVR and steamed last month. This was returned to the UK in the 70s in Swedish form but was identifiable as being a WD. It has been given a new number 1 after the previous series.
One other engine was meant to return to the UK as well but was cut in Sweden in error. This was I believe in the late 70s as well. Giving the impression that the whole reserve fleet was to be cut as well.
Can anyone confirm this?