Mystery loco

[52D]

The loco shown in the pic requires identification we can make out the word Bristol and the number 11 on the worksplates. We seem to think it is a former mainline type sold on for industrial duties in the Cannock wood area of Staffordshire. Has anyone any ideas. The bearded chap in the pic is supposed to be Thomas Longstaff undermanager at Cannock wood Colliery.

[52D]

Below are replies ive had from contacts up to now.

Hi George,

> did the North Stafford use 0-4-2 tender engines the reason im asking is that a pic
> on flickr that needs identification has an NSR look about it.

You've set us a bit of a teaser here!

Herewith, comments from three of my colleagues in the North Staffordshire Railway
Study Group...

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John Sherratt:

At the risk of sticking my neck out and being proved wrong, the NSR never had any
engines like that.

My other thought was that it might be one of the LNWR McConnell 0-4-2's from the
former Southern Divison of that company. However, I am not at all sure of this, aside
from anythinng else the wheels look a bit small. The RCTS book on LNWR Southern
Divison locos does not mention any of these being sold into industrial use, and says
they were all withdrawn well before the given date of the photo.

In any event the word "Bristol" on the works plate would seem to rule this out.

It is a great shame that the front of the loco is not shown and that the bearded
gentleman is standing in front of the tender details.

I only have the Industrial Railway Society book on North Staffordshire - perhaps if
anyone on here has the equivalent book on South Staffs this might shed some light on
the engine. If the date given is correct, I think the engine must have been in
private or industrial use at the time - I doubt if there would have been any engines
like this running on main line railways (excluding the Col Stephens empire perhaps)
by this time.

------------

David Moore:

Also in "head-sticking-out" mode; could it be a relic of the South Staffordshire
Railway? Did the SSR have its own locos before being absorbed in the LNWR?

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Allan Baker:

It's a main line engine (very large driving wheel diameter) I would say and not an
industrial and in any event there is nothing like it in any of the IRS Handbooks for
the West Midlands. It has been fitted with the vacuum brake; that's the brake pipe
rather crudely sticking out of the cab side sheet and the ejector exhaust running
along the boiler, so the date is late 1880s, early 1890s I would say. It does not
look like an early Avonside and the plate could reflect a repair; Avonside were quite
active in repairing engines at this time and it may be they that fitted the vacuum
brake (although one would have expected an experienced builder that Avonside to have
made a neater job!). The plate on the leading splashe appears to have a No 11, and I
suspect this is the owners plate and if Bristol can be discerned on the trailing
splasher cannot something be deciphered on the leading one?

One of the Avonside lists has its 700-4 as new to Neath & Brecon Railway in 1866 but
nobody has ever been able to locate them in the records of that line! They were 0-4-2
tender engine with inside cylinders and the only ones of this type in the list with
unconfirmed buyer; but as I said, not all lists agree and contemporary records of the
company are scant to say the least.

------------

For my own part, I have a very old (1957) copy of the Birmingham Locomotive Club
(Industrial Locomotive Section) West Midlands book, which includes Staffordshire. If
it was in industrial use in the area, I'm sure it would be in there somewhere, but I
can't find it. It's very odd for a tender loco to be in industrial service, although
I know the Butterley Company had a few.

Also, there are one or two things about this "mystery picture" that don't quite add
up for me...

Assuming the person who put the picture up has the original, I'm surprised he can't
make out more of the writing on the plates, even if the version we're seeing on Flickr is not sharp enough.

Also, how do they apparently know enough about the photograph to be able to say that
it was taken at Hednesford or Cannock Wood in 1901/1905, and identify Thomas
Longstaff, the one-time undermanager at Cannock Wood? How reliable is that
information, I wonder?

Do you know anything more about photo's provenance?

A real Christmas brain-teaser!

Cheers, Howard.

[StevieG]

With no detailed knowledge whatsoever on this, could it be Bristol engineering that served abroad ('down under', NZ, Tasmania) ?

[52D]

Hi guys its amazing what turns up when you appeal;

Hi George,

More from Allan Baker - not what you might have been expecting though...

> I wonder if our friend Longstaff ever visited Ireland; he may have had relations there?
>
> Waterford & Central Ireland Railway 10 and 11 were Avonside 965 and 966 of 1873, 0-4-2 tender, inside cylinders 16x24inch and 5ft 3inch driving wheel diameter. They became Great Southen & Western Rly 258 and 259 on take-over in September 1900. With such large drivers these were passenger engines and would have been vacuum braked following the 1889 Regs of Railways Act which at that time covered Ireland: indeed it was the Armagh accident that was partly the reason for the Act. The locomotive would appear to have driving wheels of about 5ft diameter judging by the men.
> I have scoured the country and cannot find anything to fit this side of the Irish sea!

Cheers, Howard.