How were new locos delivered from outside builders?

[Pyewipe Junction]

I saw a reference to the 'Scotch (sic) Arthurs' the other night. These were the N15s that the NBL Co built for the Southern. They had a long journey to make to their home territory!

This made me wonder - how did the owning company take delivery of locos built by outside contractors, especially if the contractor was not within or close to the owning company's metals?

I note that the LNER had most of its outside work done by NBL and other companies (like Armstrong Whitworth and Robert Stephenson) that were on or adjacent to its territory, but a batch of 50 B1s was built by the Vulcan Foundry which, I believe was at Newton-le-Willows in Lancashire.

Some other questions came to mind: were locos delivered in batches, or individually? Were they delivered under their own steam or were they hauled, possibly in groups of two or three, just as happened in the 60s, at the other end of their lives, for scrapping. Were they delivered to a works for proving (and painting)? Were they painted in livery by the contractors, or was this done by the owning company at its works?

Sorry for all the questions!

[Solario]

A good question, one that has crossed my mind in the past.

There were also the locos built for export, especially the big ones like the Garratts. I guess that these would have been transported in kit form, but what about smaller, standard gauge engines from, say, Leeds?

In "The Springburn Story " by John Thomas, there is an excellent description of the way that the North British works took their export locos by road down to the docks. I suppose that the Arthurs could have been shipped by this method but my guess is that locos for the home market would travel under their own power to the purchaser.

I believe that in the past, even into early BR days, there was not the problem about non-company locomotives using the tracks, for instance, occasionally, ICI would move a shunter from Northwich down the LMS/BR line to Middlewich and vice versa, I think that it had to be crewed by LMS/BR men.

[hq1hitchin]

My trusty 1947 LNER General Appendix gives instructions to staff regarding the conveyance of privately owned engines running on their own wheels, which also includes Railway owned locomotives. Basically, prior application had to be made and a diagram prepared, detailing what we would now know as the kinetic envelope of the locomotive - maximum height and width, centre of buffers, maximum clearance above rail level, plus weight on each axle and so on. Regarding 'engines interchanged between companies', the company on whose line the journey is commenced must make the necessary arrangements with the other companies for the acceptance of the engine. Should an engine not 'comply with the regulations' then it was to be treated as an out of gauge load (the old railways were great at this - special bell codes, opposite lines to be blocked and what have you, rarely resorted to nowadays) and special arrangements made but if authority was given for it to travel as an OOG load, then once it had been examined by, say, the LNER it would not be necessary for it to be held for examination at 'inter-company junctions' with the LMS, GW or SR. The entry also lists things like minimum clearances above rail level for the different companies, speed restrictions when travelling marshalled 'dead' in a freight train etc. and clearly states that each engine, before despatch, whether running dead or in steam must first be examined by a representative of the Loco Running Supt's department as to its fitness to run. Indemnity forms and certificate to be obtained from owner regarding engine being fit to run in steam etc. In short, commonsense to apply throughout!

[CVR1865]

So the Southern locos wouldn't have had too much trouble then, I imagine their loading gauge was smaller than the LNER one? But what about GWR locos weren't they slightly broader than even a Gresley giant, except the garret of course. Or was the LNER gauge set by the Garret being their widest loco?

[Bill Bedford]

So the Southern locos wouldn't have had too much trouble then, I imagine their loading gauge was smaller than the LNER one? But what about GWR locos weren't they slightly broader than even a Gresley giant, except the garret of course. Or was the LNER gauge set by the Garret being their widest loco?

The Loading gauge was set by the infrastructure of particular line and the locos and rolling stock built to that gauge. I believe all the 'wide' GWR outside cylindered locos were built at Swindon so delivery over foreign metals was not a problem. This did not stop GWR Saints/Castles reaching Leicester (regularly), Nottingham (occasionally) or Grantham (once) in the 30s.

[60041]

This is a subject that I have wondered about before. There are many photographs of new loco's being loaded onto ships on the Clyde and at the Armstrong works on Tyneside, but I have always assumed that they were the ones being exported, as the cost of transferring them onto and off the ships, and the time that a journey would take would not make sense for an inland journey. However,I have never seen any pictures of new loco's being delivered by rail and I would have thought that the sight of new SR loco's passing through somewhere like Carlisle or Newcastle would have attracted a bit of interest.
The other thing that has had me wondering is the matter of transferring small locomotives around the country, such as when the North London tanks were sent to work the Dornoch branch, or when ex GWR panniers were sold to the NCB for use in the North East. These movements must have taken days to complete at a max speed of 20 - 25 mph and with the constant need to stop for coal and water.
The North Sunderland Railway used a variety of small tank engines over the years including 2 sentinels and an ex L&YR pug and they must have moved in and out by rail and made journeys of at least 200 miles, indeed when the line closed, the resident Y7 68089 was sent to Morecambe and it will have needed to re-fuel every 20 miles or so during the journey.
Even if the loco's were towed it would not have improved matters much as the speeds will have still been restricted, and the loco's would have needed to be kept in steam to maintain the lubrication, or have had their motions dismantled for the journey.

[Malcolm]

Sort of related.
Came across this on JAMD today. Quite a fun and interesting image.

23rd September 1936: An LNER engine being towed from Denham Station on a trailer, to be used in the new Marlene Dietrich film 'Knight in Armour'. (Photo by Fred Morley/Fox Photos/Getty Images)

Malcolm

[Bill Bedford]

Even if the loco's were towed it would not have improved matters much as the speeds will have still been restricted, and the loco's would have needed to be kept in steam to maintain the lubrication, or have had their motions dismantled for the journey.

The usual way of transferring locos was to remove the motion and tow them dead in goods trains. In general new engines were delivered to the nearest company works where they could be run-in under works supervision.

Removing coupling, connecting and eccentric rods and was well within the capabilities of shed fitters. As for restricting the speeds while being towed, most ordinary goods trains never travelled much more than 25-30 mph.

[hq1hitchin]

'Under no circumstances must an engine on its own wheels be allowed to run in Freight trains at a booked sectional speed exceeding 25 miles per hour' - LNER General Appendix again - so as somebody has already pointed out, a long and slow journey for anything travelling any distance. BTW, I read somewhere that they had some fun keeping 10000 (The Hush Hush) hidden from prying LMS eyes when it was hauled new somewhere over that system in Scotland. I believe they even went to the trouble of sheeting it over.......

[silver fox]

To put it simply, you had to pay to cross someone else's metals.
I quote in respect of the DVLR's setinal in 1925.
"It was forwarded from the makers works at Shrewsbury, the LMS agreeing to waive carriage charges to Chester, and the LNER did like wise from Chester to York."

[jwealleans]

I've seen a picture somewhere of two of the NBL built 'King Arthurs' being worked south by the LNER. They're in their own train, two locos with barrier wagons each side and between them and a brake van. If I come across it again I'll post a reference.