The LNER Encyclopedia

Just a clarification of in particular the Down fast line block instrument(s) and especially the 'block' to Finsbury Park no.5 the next box and block section north of Finsbury Park no.3 through the station, anyway was the block instrument concerned to obtain a 'line clear' release from Finsbury Park no.5 located above the block shelf in about the middle area of the long block shelf in the box although the Down fast line colour light home signal lever no.79 and the Down fast line semaphore distant signal lever no.80 were located in the lever frame on the extreme right-hand end of the frame. I was told that both levers no.79 & no.80 were regarded as 'the box lads levers' as they were located opposite the high train register desk where also the control phone along with the other circuit phones and the GN single needle telegraph instrument(s) were located and therefore it 'saved the signalman legs' after 'ringing' the train forward on the block bell to Finsbury Park no.5 and then having to walk 6 or 7 paces along the lever frame to 'pull off' the Down fast line home & distant signals so 'the box lad' use to work those two levers. Also with regards to Finsbury Park no.3s own Down fast line semaphore distant signal the signalman or telegraph lad had to wait until Finsbury Park no.5 had 'cleared his Down fast line signals' as well before the electric release on the Finsbury Park no.3 Down fast line semaphore distant signal would release no.80 lever so it could be pulled out of the frame.

I visited Finsbury Park no.3 only once either during 1972 or 1973 courtesy of one of the telegraph lads at the box named Alistair and the signalman at the box that afternoon was an Asian fella named Danny from vague memory ?.

At short notice I worked Finsbury Park No3 as telegraph lad for one shift only. Nobody told me until afterwards that the lads were expected to work levers 79 & 80 which no doubt was the reason the signalman barely spoke to me. With the lack of communication I had trouble enough completing the train register accurately in a strange environment - it was not one of my most best days!

John

During my one visit there, I hadn't noticed that the 'lad' was expected to work the Down Fast rather than just voluntarily helping out John.

The old memory must be getting dodgy Mickey, because I thought that the DF Block and bells were close to 79 & 80 (which were Distant and Home respectively - not the other way round).
Must have a look at my old notes/sketches sometime to check.
( Might you be thinking of No.6, where the Up Fast signal levers were 'the wrong way round' ? - 53 Home, 54 Inner Distant, 55 Outer Distant.)

StevieG wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 10:05 pm The old memory must be getting dodgy Mickey, because I thought that the DF Block and bells were close to 79 & 80 (which were Distant and Home respectively - not the other way round).

You may be right, Steve, I thought the same but wasn't confident enough of my memory to say so.

John

StevieG wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 10:05 pm During my one visit there, I hadn't noticed that the 'lad' was expected to work the Down Fast rather than just voluntarily helping out John.

The old memory must be getting dodgy Mickey, because I thought that the DF Block and bells were close to 79 & 80 (which were Distant and Home respectively - not the other way round).

Ha ha well in my defence Stevie was I also had only visited Finsbury Park no.3 once only that was one afternoon for about an hour maybe back in either the second half of 1972 or the first half of 1973 I really can't recall now and to be honest I don't remember much about the positioning of the block instruments and the individual block bells on the long block shelf except possibly they were all of the GN wooden cased instruments and individual block bells although I have a feeling that no B.R. 3-position standard block instruments were at the box but I maybe wrong ?. Anyway I just 'assumed' that with levers no.79 & 80 being located at the far right-hand end of the 80-lever frame and were called unofficially 'the box lads levers' I thought if the Down fast line block instruments were place about half-way along the block shelf it would have 'saved the signalman on duty having to walk' from the Down fast line block instruments to those two levers at the far end of the frame to 'clear' both of them but as you said Stevie and John also thought the 'Down fast line block instruments' were located at the far right-hand end of the 80-lever frame above levers nos.79 & 80 or in that area above on the block shelf. Anyway even exactly 50 years on from when Finsbury Park no.3 & no.5 both closed during late 1974 from memory (during October?) it is still interesting (to me at least) to know how the old signalling in the boxes worked.

From a telegraph lads perspective, possibly out of the two Finsbury Park boxes that still employed 'box lads' in the early 1970s maybe Finsbury Park no.3 was regarded as the 'better' of the two boxes job wise because Alistair who had invited me to visit Finsbury Park no.3 back then had recently at that time 'swapped boxes' from Finsbury Park no.6 to Finsbury Park no.3 so possibly Finsbury Park no.3 was regarded as the 'better job' out of the two boxes?. Personally I always had a liking for Finsbury Park no.6 which always seemed a more interesting job plus I always liked the actual box although possibly this was due to Finsbury Park no.3 appeared to be 'tucked away' and virtually out of sight to the travelling public although that reason was deceptive regarding how much work Finsbury Park no.3 did because quite a few 'train movements' took place at Finsbury Park no.3 but they were mostly unseen to most people standing on any of the Finsbury Park station platforms.

thesignalman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 5:03 pm At short notice I worked Finsbury Park No3 as telegraph lad for one shift only. Nobody told me until afterwards that the lads were expected to work levers 79 & 80 which no doubt was the reason the signalman barely spoke to me. With the lack of communication I had trouble enough completing the train register accurately in a strange environment - it was not one of my most best days!

Ha ha I believe you've mentioned this before John a few years ago and yeah I can believe one or two signalmen who worked the box either as regular or relief signalmen may have thought that you was being a bit 'awkward' in not attending to the Down fast line 'blocks' and or working those two levers especially if you was just standing at the high desk looking at the block shelf after Holloway North Down had just offered you 4-bells 'be ready' on the Down fast line and you was just standing opposite the block shelf with the signalman at the other end of the frame wondering if you was going to acknowledge the 4-bells and offer it on to Finsbury Park no.5 and pull off?. Ha ha..

"They were great days and I am glad I caught the last six or seven years in the late 1960s and early 1970s before it was all swept away!!."

thesignalman wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2024 9:49 am

StevieG wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 10:05 pm The old memory must be getting dodgy Mickey, because I thought that the DF Block and bells were close to 79 & 80 (which were Distant and Home respectively - not the other way round).

You may be right, Steve, I thought the same but wasn't confident enough of my memory to say so.

John

Mickey wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2024 10:33 am " .... Well in my defence Stevie was I also had only visited Finsbury Park no.3 once only that was one afternoon for about an hour maybe back in either the second half of 1972 or the first half of 1973 I really can't recall now and to be honest I don't remember much about the positioning of the block instruments and the individual block bells on the long block shelf except possibly they were all of the GN wooden cased instruments and individual block bells .... "

John and Mickey,
Just had a look at my 50+ year-old notes, and the Down Fast Blocks and bells were just to the right of the on-shelf diagram (only a few levers from 79 & 80), with all the others ranging from the left side of the diagram (no B&W 'penguin' Blocks when I visited about 1969/70 Mickey).

StevieG wrote: ↑Sat Sep 21, 2024 12:32 am

Mickey wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2024 10:33 am " .... Well in my defence Stevie was I also had only visited Finsbury Park no.3 once only that was one afternoon for about an hour maybe back in either the second half of 1972 or the first half of 1973 I really can't recall now and to be honest I don't remember much about the positioning of the block instruments and the individual block bells on the long block shelf except possibly they were all of the GN wooden cased instruments and individual block bells .... "

John and Mickey,
Just had a look at my 50+ year-old notes, and the Down Fast Blocks and bells were just to the right of the on-shelf diagram (only a few levers from 79 & 80), with all the others ranging from the left side of the diagram (no B&W 'penguin' Blocks when I visited about 1969/70 Mickey).

Interesting Stevie, and as you point out the box didn't have any B.R. standard block instruments because I do vaguely recall seeing the large number of GN wooden cased block instruments on the block shelf only and nothing else. Also as I posted a few years ago that you also replied to Stevie I do also recall seeing 'the big Finsbury Park no.3 signal gantry' that carried x4 tall dolls (posts) with its array of semaphore stop signal arms place one above the other along with the Finsbury Park no.5s associated distant signals at the bottom of each doll for each line on the Down Canonbury line from Finsbury Park no.1 and on the Down goods lines coming from Finsbury Park no.2 which were all later 'cut down' in 1970 and being replaced by x4 colour light heads with theatre light route indicators on the same gantry. Also from memory the Finsbury Park no.3 x3 associated semaphore distant signals for the 'big signal gantry' on the goods lines' were x3 separate semaphore distant signals carried on x3 separate dolls on a 'wooden' T-bracket signal post on the goods lines and not to far distance beyond Finsbury Park no.2. That particular T-bracket signal post remained in situ for several years after the x3 distant signal arms had been removed before it was eventually removed possibly around 1974/75?.

Mickey wrote: ↑Sat Sep 21, 2024 10:41 am " .... Also from memory the Finsbury Park no.3 x3 associated semaphore distant signals for the 'big signal gantry' on the goods lines' were x3 separate semaphore distant signals carried on x3 separate dolls on a 'wooden' T-bracket signal post on the goods lines and not to far distance beyond Finsbury Park no.2. That particular T-bracket signal post remained in situ for several years after the x3 distant signal arms had been removed before it was eventually removed possibly around 1974/75?."

Spot on Mickey.

The funny thing about Finsbury Park no.3 was that on its west side it had a 'mass of point work and other connections' immediately outside the box unseen to the travelling public standing on any of the station platforms in the Down slow no.1, Down slow no.2, the Down Canonbury line and Down goods line but on the other side the east side of the box the Down fast line was just a straight line all be it a curving straight line before it straightened out outside no.3 and then ran as a straight line through the station. Also maybe about 8 or 9 sets of 'point rodding' ran collectively from the south end of the box between the Down fast & Down slow no.1 lines for some distance before pairing off for various points and connections at Western sidings and also according to a small piece that I read several years ago the Finsbury Park no.3 signal gantry south of Finsbury Park carried the last GN 'somersault signals' on the main line in the London area between Kings Cross & Wood Green until about the middle 1950s.

Finsbury Park no.3 working through to New Barnet North Box??.

I recall one dark and slightly misty Saturday evening possibly in later 1972 before 1973 because Harringay (passenger), New Southgate & Cemetery were still in existence anyway while riding as a passenger on a Kings Cross to WGC local service (a x2 car Cravens unit) it appeared to me that Finsbury Park no.3 may have been working through with New Barnet North Box on the Down lines (and Bounds Green on the Down slow no.2 line/Down Enfield line) because ALL the other intermediate s/boxes in between these two boxes all 'appeared' to be 'switched out' from what I could see including Finsbury Park no.5, Harringay (passenger) Hornsey no.1, Wood Green no.1, New Southgate & Cemetery with each box leaving there running line signals left in the 'off position' for any approaching train(s). Anyway on departing Finsbury Park station on the Down slow no.1 line I noticed that Finsbury Park no.5 was in 'complete darkness' which was very odd(?) and a quick look at all Finsbury Park no.5s running line signals on the Down fast, Down slow no.1, Down slow no.2 & Down goods line were all in the 'off position' which was again very unusual in it's self?. Harringay (passenger) as was expected was usually 'switched out' over weekends at that time with all it's running line signals left in the 'off position' on the Up & Down lines so that wasn't unusual but at Hornsey no.1 even though the box had a light left on over the train register book no movement was seen inside the box by myself looking at the box on passing it on the train but unusually I had noticed that the Down fast, Down slow no.1,Down slow no.2 & Down goods lines signals were 'all in the off position' as well which was a 'rare sight' to behold?. On approaching Wood Green and the 'tall & large Wood Green no.1 signal gantry' I noticed that the Down fast, Down slow no.1 & Down slow no.2 lines signals were all in the 'off position' and Wood Green no.1 appeared out of the dark and misty evening to be 'completely dark' which was again unusual because usually a light was left on over the train register book?. Obviously the Down slow no.2 line signals carried on into the Down Enfield line at the north end of Wood Green station so Finsbury Park no.3 would have been working through to Bounds Green. After departing Wood Green station on the Down slow line and passing through Wood Green single bore tunnel my train was eventually approaching New Southgate and again all four running lines signals on the Up & Down lines were in the 'off position' and the box appeared to be 'switched out' although a light was left on over the train register book but again no movement was seen inside the box although it wasn't that unusual for New Southgate to be 'switched out' on a Saturday evening/night back in the early 1970s. The next box at Cemetery again also appeared to be 'switched out' and again the small box was in 'complete darkness' when the train I was on passed by it and again all the Up & Down running lines signals were in the 'off position' I had noticed anyway from my memory it was quite unusual for Cemetery box to be 'switched out' at anytime?.

So I presume on that dark and misty Saturday evening back in 1972 Finsbury Park no.3 appeared to be working through to New Barnet North Box with a eight miles Absolute 'block section' on both the Down fast & Down slow lines between both boxes which would have been extremely unusual plus Finsbury Park no.3 would have also been working through to Bounds Green s/box over the Down slow no.2 line/Down Enfield line. Also I do remember that no Down express passed my x2 car Cravens unit rattling along the Down slow no.1 line between Finsbury Park and Wood Green stations and also the Down slow line between Wood Green and New Barnet station because I made a mental note of that although an express may have passed on the Down fast line when my x2 car Cravens was passing through the single bore tunnels of both Wood Green & Barnet tunnels but I doubt it?.

I think that would be possible, Micky, from memory all the intermediate boxes had switching-out facilities, but I bet the bells were a bit weak! They certainly must have been struggling for staff that night. But in late years of mechanical signalling, they were indeed desperately short of signalmen - it delayed my promotion and eventually I threw the towel in with the ER one Saturday and switched to the LMR on the Monday. And they even begged me to work the Sunday of the weekend concerned!

Without looking out closing hours, I suspect the ones that should have been open were No5 and Wood Green 1, and maybe Barnet South. Many of the others switched out at night all week and others were scheduled to switch out on Saturday nights and Sundays owing to the lack of freight traffic.

I have worked at other places where sections have been long, including your old box at Junction Road working to Woodgrange Park, and St Albans South working to Cricklewood Junction (a regular at Christmas-time). In both cases a lot of imagination was needed to detect the detail of bell signals and telephone communication was virtually non-existent too!

Best regards,

John

thesignalman wrote: ↑Mon Sep 30, 2024 12:52 pm I have worked at other places where sections have been long, including your old box at Junction Road working to Woodgrange Park, and St Albans South working to Cricklewood Junction (a regular at Christmas-time). In both cases a lot of imagination was needed to detect the detail of bell signals and telephone communication was virtually non-existent too!

With regards to St Albans South working through to Cricklewood Junction box blimey that was a 'long block section' John and by the way I have been re-watching my x2 Midland 'cab ride' DVDs dated October 1971 lately with the first DVD filming from the from the cab of probably a 'peak' on a Down express between St Pancras and Market Harborough and the second DVD filmed between Market Harborough and Sheffield Midland if you haven't already seen them John. These x2 DVDs are from Transport Video Publishing.

With regards to Junction Road on the T&H lines between Gospel Oak & Barking yes I also recall on three maybe even four separate Sundays back in 1983 & 1984 also working with Woodgrange Park (near Barking in east London) due to the four 'intermediate s/boxes' being 'switched out' which included the old Upper Holloway, Harringay Park Junction, South Tottenham & Leytonstone High Road which created about a 10 miles 'block section' between Junction Road & Woodgrange Park boxes and took a 'all stations' DMU 30 minutes in either direction to clear the block section. The way the half hour Sunday service use to work back in 1983-1984 was on the Down T&H line when Woodgrange Park gave 'out' for a Down passenger (train) the next Down passenger (train) had just departed Gospel Oak and was 'rounding the curve' up at Highgate Road on the falling gradient down towards Junction Road box and likewise on the Up T&H line when I gave 'out' for the passing Up passenger (train) back to Woodgrange Park the bloke at Woodgrange Park would 'bang in' another 3-1 (bells) to me!.

Yes and you are right John the block bells were a mixture of clicks and the odd 'dings' but it was a Sunday and only the local passenger trains ran all day into the Sunday evening back then so I knew what the 'clicks and odd dings' were ha ha.. and also because the s/box communicator on the Up line block instrument would virtually be standing at 'train on line' all day on those Sundays (draining the batteries) come Monday morning we would have a 'block failure' so the S&T had to attend the box to replace the batteries!. Ha ha good old days..

Mickey,
and thesignalman,

I'm reminded of an occasion, earlier than 'your' 1972 journey I think Mickey (maybe 1969 : 55 years ago !), when I went to 'visit' New Barnet North one dark evening, with a 'Bobby' who shall remain nameless, but for the sake of reference could be called DT.

There was a bit of a (fairly brief as I think it turned out in the end) revival of the old Union of Railway Signalmen well under way at the time, with a 'Charlie Holloway' seemingly at the helm ; which may or may not be relevant to the following.

I didn't know, or want to know, much about management/worker politics way back then, but I do recall in this instance, there was some degree of industrial (in)action going on that evening, and 'Barnet North' was working with Finsbury Park No.5 (I don't recall who we were working with on the Up - Wood Green 4 or 2 perhaps ; and I feel sure that Potters Bar was open as normal) : But yes, the bells with No.5 were pretty week indeed.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Then on this of all evenings, a class 31-hauled non-passenger train of some sort passed the 606-yards-away NBN Up Slow Home (BN66) at Danger but stopped in the overlap. Strangely there was no phone call from the loco crew within a reasonable time.
So after a while, to get things moving, 'bobby' said how did I feel about walking out to the loco. Youthful enthusiasm brought immediate agreement so off I went.
AFAIR, on reaching the loco I got aboard and found that it was double-manned, so I conveyed that the signalman had authorised them to proceed to the box. Maybe someone had used the SPT while I was on the way, as my words were accepted without question !
So off we went to the North box, where I dropped off.
That's all I recall about it, which in hindsight seems an occurrence that was a bit weird and certainly astonishing.

An interesting recollection Stevie and back then 55-60 years ago that possibly wouldn't have seemed to out of the ordinary but on to todays railways that would seem totally alien to todays railway staff?.

With regards to John mentioning St Albans South working with Cricklewood Junction box I looked up the mileage between both boxes working over the Up & Down fast lines and that would have been a '15 miles block section' but on the Up & Down slow lines and assuming St Albans South was working with Silkstream Junction (this box only worked the Up & Down slow lines north of Hendon and it is where the junction points for the Up & Down goods lines started and finished) the mileage between both boxes was 12 miles but even so it was still a fairly long block section all the same.