The LNER Encyclopedia

Well it wasn't that much of a drama in reality but on reflection it could have been. I can't remember the exact date but I assume that it would have been either in late 1971 or during 1972 the last year that Marshmoor box was open before it closed in November of that year. Anyway I was riding as a passenger in the leading driving unit of a x2 car Cravens unit from Kings Cross back to Welwyn Garden City during the early afternoon during a weekday when we rounded the curve on the Down slow line where Welham Green station is today and has been since the 1980s and with Marshmoor's Down slow line semaphore home signal showing off on the T-bracket signal post we passed underneath the road overbridge at this point and ran onto the straight section of railway heading towards Redhall (Hatfield) with Marshmoor box visible in the near distance standing beside the Down slow line when a large bulldozer came into view parked a little to close beside the Down slow line after I assume the bulldozer driver had left the thing there (failing the Down slow line) and had gone off for some lunch?. Anyway the Cravens unit hit the bulldozer at about 35-40 mph ripping all the left-hand side door handles off the unit!. The Cravens unit driver made a full emergency vacuum brake application and the unit stopped outside Marshmoor box with the signalman appearing standing in the doorway of the box talking with the driver after we had stopped. On reflection I suppose the signalman couldn't have been paying to much attention with a bulldozer parked very close to the Down slow line before he pulled off his signals because the bulldozer was only about one hundred yards away from the box so it must have been clearly seen from the box I assume anyway I presume it could have been a lot worse if the bulldozer had been a foot or two nearer the Down slow line and the Cravens unit had struck it nearly head-on it may have been a lot more serious?.

Given how rattly the Cravens units were, I am a little surprised that the damage was so limited. Normal journeys always came with the suggestion that something might come loose and fall off. But all is forgiven for the forward view when the driver was kind enough to leave the blinds up...

Personally Hatfield Shed I have a sentimental soft spot for the much maligned old Craven units (class 105) or as us young train spotters at Welwyn Garden City use to call them back in the late 1960s and early 1970s 'bug boxes' that worked on the GN suburban lines out of Kings Cross during the late 1960s and the first half of the 1970s. True they had rattily top windows and the main windows would vibrate when the driver opened the controller along with the seats and they were fairly noisy to ride on and sometimes they stunk of diesel fumes but they weren't that bad.

The funny thing about that 'incident' at Marshmoor back then was that we carried on to WGC before the train terminated where it would have done so anyway after making it's normal scheduled stop at Hatfield which on todays railway would have warranted the driver after such an incident being asked if he was prepared to take his train forward to Hatfield where it would have no doubt been taken out of service.

With regards to Marshmoor box I recall very shortly after the box was closed in November 1972 the following week after the closure weekend when I was working a late turn (14:00-22:00hrs) at Welwyn Garden City box as the telegraph lad 'on the book' it was mentioned on the control circuit phone that a small number of trains when passing the recently closed Marshmoor box were exploding detonators and were then coming to a stand in the area. From memory a Down express from Kings Cross exploded a det outside the box and came to a grinding halt further along the Down fast line towards Redhall on a dark November evening and of course back then mobile phones were unheard of so I presume the locos secondman (fireman) would have had to walk to the nearest SPT (Signal Post Telephone) and inform the signalman at Hatfield No.1 of what had happened or possibly the Potters Bar signalman if a SPT that was used was on a colour light signal on the Up lines?.

Mickey wrote: ↑Wed Jul 05, 2023 6:26 pm ...The funny thing about that 'incident' at Marshmoor back then was that we carried on to WGC before the train terminated where it would have done so anyway after making it's normal scheduled stop at Hatfield which on todays railway would have warranted the driver after such an incident being asked if he was prepared to take his train forward to Hatfield where it would have no doubt been taken out of service.

Such is the current degree of nervousness that in my opinion if an equivalent event happened today the entire train would be stopped for inspection: because any of the doors could have opened at random, or have proved unusable. The passengers would be disembarked and bussed onwards, and the driver sent to be questioned by management as to why he didn't steer around the obstructing bulldozer...

Hatfield Shed wrote: ↑Thu Jul 06, 2023 12:24 pm

Mickey wrote: ↑Wed Jul 05, 2023 6:26 pm ...The funny thing about that 'incident' at Marshmoor back then was that we carried on to WGC before the train terminated where it would have done so anyway after making it's normal scheduled stop at Hatfield which on todays railway would have warranted the driver after such an incident being asked if he was prepared to take his train forward to Hatfield where it would have no doubt been taken out of service.

Such is the current degree of nervousness that in my opinion if an equivalent event happened today the entire train would be stopped for inspection: because any of the doors could have opened at random, or have proved unusable. The passengers would be disembarked and bussed onwards, and the driver sent to be questioned by management as to why he didn't steer around the obstructing bulldozer...

You are correct about all those assumptions Hatfield Shed and also the signalman on duty at the time of the incident would have these days been 'med/screened' for any consumption of alcohol and drugs be them prescribed or illegal since the drug & alcohol laws were introduced on the railways back in 1991 I recall?.

That incident happened about 51/52 years ago in either 1971 or 1972 and I can't say for sure what happened when the Cravens unit finally terminated at WGC but it wouldn't have surprised me if the unit remained in service?. I remember for definite that the leading driving unit the first left-hand passenger door handle in the unit was ripped off when coming into contact with the parked bulldozer beside the Down slow line but I am not sure about the other three passenger left-hand door handles in the x2 car unit but I can only assume that the other three door handles were also ripped off?. Maybe after a visual inspection of any damage done to the unit at WGC it was found to be of minimal damage like 'missing passenger door handles' if you can call that 'minimal damage' on what would become the right-hand side of the unit when travelling back UP ROAD to Kings Cross so it wouldn't have been beyond the realms of possibilities that someone made a decision to keep the unit 'in service' remember this was during the British Rail era and 'funny things could happen' and some times did back then ha ha ha... Anyway the unit would have departed WGC as normal along the Up slow line to Hatfield which would have been ok to stop at after which if the unit was 'turned out' along the Up fast line at Hatfield No.1 the unit could have continued it's journey south Up to Kings Cross running on the fast line and stopping at Brookmans Park, Potters Bar, New Barnet, Oakleigh Park, New Southgate, Wood Green, Hornsey, Harringay, Finsbury Park and finally Kings Cross platform numbers 11, 13 & 15 on the westside suburban station. That may sound a bit far fetched these days in 2023 but things like that use to happen on British Rail back then.

Note the Hadley Wood stop would have had to be missed out because even though there was a little used platform on the Up fast line the right-hand side damaged door handles would be on that side if the train stopped at Hadley Wood on the Up fast line.

Also of note I do actually remember on a one or two rare occasions back in the early 1970s riding on a 'all stations stopper' probably a Cravens unit (class 105) between WGC & Kings Cross and being 'turned out' Up the fast line at Hatfield No.1 and then stopping at all the fast line platforms to Finsbury Park including Hadley Wood as well so it could be done if required.

Mickey wrote: ↑Fri Jul 07, 2023 10:26 am ...this was during the British Rail era and 'funny things could happen' and some times did back then...

The management then were still the time served railwaymen and confident of their own judgement, and allowed to act on it.

Hatfield Shed wrote: ↑Fri Jul 07, 2023 12:36 pm

Mickey wrote: ↑Fri Jul 07, 2023 10:26 am ...this was during the British Rail era and 'funny things could happen' and some times did back then...

The management then were still the time served railwaymen and confident of their own judgement, and allowed to act on it.

True Hatfield Shed. A small number of the 'local operations managers' that were on my area and who were still around during the 1980s after coming on the railways during the 1950s and 1960s usually as signalmen knew their stuff alright but later on from about the 1990s and 2000s onwards let us just say overall they were of a different calibre from the old time railwaymen and managers of the past although to be fare the 'modern' managers and staff had to work under modern day working practices, conditions and constraints.

After closure in November 1972 the redundant Marshmoor box lay empty for several weeks with the box door left half-open presumedly by S&T staff and as seen from passing trains and although the lever frame remained in the box until the box was dismantled several weeks later after closure all the S&T equipment including the track diagram and block instruments and other pieces of minor S&T equipment was all removed during the changeover weekend. That was not uncommon when signal boxes closed back then the same thing happened at Cemetery when that box closed in February 1973 between New Southgate and Oakleigh Park with the box laying empty again for several weeks after closure with the box door being left half-open again.

Not the only drama of Marshmoor MIckey.
A good friend who covered that box, once told me of one of the older reliefmen, Alec Temple (a.k.a. Lobby Ludd, and who was still just about working in the late 1960s but reaching retirement age), who could be a a bit prone to being dramatic about things, reckoned that one day some years before, someone had shot at the box from a passing steam-hauled Down express, causing a small hole through one of the windows.

Doubtless 7-belling it forward, the story went that the train was duly stopped at Hatfield for quite a while for the Police to search the train. But no gun was found.

After many days, it was said that someone else at Marshmoor who'd dropped something (a pen perhaps) behind the locker/cupboard-top sloping writing desk, moved it away from the wall, and strangely found a small fairly round piece of coal there.
Not conclusive of course, but ..... ?

Not long after, Albert Coe at Hatfield No.3, who was very talented at drawing cartoons, had produced one of Alec in wild West cowboy garb, complete with six-shooters in holsters, with hands hovering over them ready to draw his guns, and captioned
"Okay. Let 'em come ! Ah'm a ready for 'em."

Yeah good on Stevie

Alec Temple (a.k.a.Lobby Ludd) Stevie?. I heard of that nickname a couple of times when I was at Welwyn Garden City as a telegraph lad between 1972-1974 so it was Alec Temple then. In actual fact there is a picture of Alec standing on the Marshmoor box landing outside the box door with a youngster apparently photographed in 1967 which was about the first time that I would have seen Marshmoor box 'in the flesh' because from about June of1967 that was the first time that I rode a return journey from WGC to KX and back to 'Garden City' on a x2 car 'all stopper' Cravens unit. Over 50 years later so 'Lobby Ludd' was Alec Temple interesting Stevie.

I do remember one day possibly on a Sunday I vaguely recall in either 1969 or 1970 of riding my push bike from WGC to Marshmoor via Hatfield and I was trying to attract the attention of the signalman who was working the box that day because I was trying to get an invite up into the box (I was behind the wire boundary fence near the box) and the signalman on several occasions came to the window then went away again anyway later on when I started at WGC as a telegraph lad in 18172 I realised that the signalman working the box that day was none other than Mo Kantor a long serving relief signalman that you also knew Stevie. By the way I never did get into Marshmoor that Sunday.

I kind of liked Marshmoor box although it wasn't one of my favourite boxes between Kings Cross & Hitchin but I liked where it was situated in a fairly isolated area although a road ran near the back of the box leading to and from an industral estate and some factories also layed nearby across from the back of the box. Also I quite liked the idea of no station being closeby plus the idea of the box not having any points on the Up & Down fast lines and the Up slow line although two sets of (switches) connections lay either side of the box leading to and from the two roads Down sidings into the Down slow line. In those two road sidings the Kallogg's train vans were often seen anyway I would say Marshmoor was a good 'starter box' for a ex-telegraph lad just after being passed out on rules & regs by the local District Inspector and to spend a couple of year working the box until moving up the promotion ladder and transferring to one of the three Hatfield boxes.

With reference to the photograph of Alec Temple just type in Marshmoor signal box and some pictures are shown of Marshmoor and the railway and signal box.