The LNER Encyclopedia

Any information regarding Palmers Green signal box in north London on the Hertford loop?. I vaguely remember seeing it only once when riding as a passenger on a Kings Cross to Hertford North train possibly around 1970?. The box was from a vague memory quite an attractive little structure of I presume GNR origin and was located beside the Up Enfield line maybe a hundred yards off the Up station platform ramp. I would assume the box only contained a small 15-20 lever frame?. I believe when I saw the box around 1970 it only controlled a main to main crossover although a siding at this location may have existed in earlier years?. I would assume it just worked Absolute block with the boxes either side of it those being Bounds Green heading up road towards the Wood Green direction and Winchmore Hill heading down road towards the Enfield Chase direction. I presume the box closed during the early 1970s. No photographs of the box appear to exist on the internet?.

Mickey, I thought the Middleton Hertford Loop book would show a photo but I drew a blank. All it says is that the final signal box had 20 levers and was in use from May 1929 to September 1972.
Charlie

Thanks for the information Charlie, so it contained a 20 lever frame and closed in 1972 interesting.

As I previously said I saw it maybe once around 1970-71(?) and from vague memory the box was slightly similar to maybe Ashburton Gove or Cemetery north of New Southgate but only in it's small size although it was slightly tall for it's small size I vaguely recall and stood maybe a hundred yards off the Up platform be side the Up Enfield line.

It was on the up side but I think that it was more towards the Broomfield Lane bridge, it may have even been to the south side of it?

A latter day view of Palmers Green station looking towards the Wood Green direction. Palmers Green signal box was situated beyond the 'bridge hole' maybe about 100 yards beyond the station to the left of the Up Enfield line. Note the white painted square on the brickwork of the booking office back wall that may well have been used as a 'sighting board' for a semaphore stop signal in bygone years when Palmers Green box was still in use?. http://s0.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/04/ ... 1f970f.jpg

Mickey, I'm looking right now at my sketch of the box diagram, drawn during my one-off visit in the box in about 1970.
IIRC the box was about about 100 yards south of the station and the Booking Hall/Alderman's Hill overbridge, but was definitely on the DOWN side, with its 20-lever McKenzie & H. frame in the back of the box.
By that time the only remaining points were the trailing crossover which was partly under the bridge.

But there had been an Up yard served at its north end by a slip off the crossover, and points out onto the Up line from the south end (Ground Frame-operated) some way towards Bowes Park, but also, between the box and the bridge, there had been trailing points in the Down road leading back into some Down sidings, and finally there'd been a second crossover north of the platforms.

Strangely, out of the six spots here where the GN would normally have provided a ground disc, only two actually had one, even though there were five Spare levers, with the other four locations without, including both of the near-box sidings exits.
One could be forgiven for thinking that the need for a larger box (the original had been an 'under the stairs' enclosure, like Winchmore Hill) had been an urgent matter for some reason, hastily met in a slightly economical way.

StevieG wrote: ↑Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:04 am Mickey, I'm looking right now at my sketch of the box diagram, drawn during my one-off visit in the box in about 1970.
IIRC the box was about about 100 yards south of the station and the Booking Hall/Alderman's Hill overbridge, but was definitely on the DOWN side, with its 20-lever McKenzie & H. frame in the back of the box.

The box stood be side the DOWN line Stevie?. I would have sworn I saw it standing be side the UP line?. Still may be it was a case of me seeing the box only once and for some reason it stayed in my mind it was be side the Up line maybe because I have a vague memory of riding on a Cravens unit heading Down road from Bowes Park and looking out from a right side window of the DMU and seeing the box appear and passing it standing be side the Up line as we approached Palmers Green station?. Oh well if you say it was be side the Down line then I presume it was standing be side the Down line.

Also something about the box name board has stuck in my mind?. Was the name board quite large and fixed to either side of the gable roof?. Maybe I am imaging that as well?.

During the early 1970s I rarely ventured around the Hertford loop preferring to stay on the main line via Hatfield although on reflection it was an interesting line to travel on from Wood Green to Hertford North with it's stations and signal boxes along the route including the small Cuffley viaduct and long Ponsbourne tunnel and also the odd Bayford block hut to lookout for on passing it. The line between Hertford North station and Langley Junction where the ECML was joined rarely saw any trains let alone only one or two during the late 1960s and early 1970s.

Palmers Green s/box appears to be bit of a mystery box as no information or photographs can be found on it?.

Mickey wrote: ↑Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:09 am " The box stood be side the DOWN line Stevie?. I would have sworn I saw it standing be side the UP line?. Still may be it was a case of me seeing the box only once and for some reason it stayed in my mind it was be side the Up line maybe because I have a vague memory of riding on a Cravens unit heading Down road from Bowes Park and looking out from a right side window of the DMU and seeing the box appear and passing it standing be side the Up line as we approached Palmers Green station?. Oh well if you say it was be side the Down line then I presume it was standing be side the Down line. .... "

" .... Palmers Green s/box appears to be bit of a mystery box as no information or photographs can be found on it?.

Sounds like you're not really convinced Mickey.
A quick Google-search for "Palmers Green signal box" soon found several results, including two, the other ends of the links to which may help, (if there's any way you can view them) : -

Low-res. signal box diagram of 1950 from the S-R-S website : -
https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/lner/E29.gif

A copyright mark-superimposed HMRS photo from the Up Platform looking through the bridge hole towards Bowes Park, and including the box by the Down road : -
https://hmrs.org.uk/photographs/palmers ... ition.html
( Unfortunately the photo's been uploaded on its side, which doesn't help looking for details.)

I don't recall what the nameboards were like, and its a bit hard to see much in the photo, except that there definitely is one on the north end, below the widows.

Sometimes, Mickey, I find thinking too much about a vague memory can convince you of things that weren't really so. All this is many years ago now and I certainly don't remember much about this box other than what photographs and records show me.

There are two pictures on my photographic web site which show the box (and its nameboards) from opposite ends:
https://433shop.co.uk/index.php?route=p ... cription=1
(click on the images twice to bring them up to a readable size).

There is a track layout diagram for 1960 on my signalling web site here:
https://signalbox.org/~SBdiagram.php?id=%20655

Prior to 1929 there had been a cramped "under-the-stairs" signal box like the nearby Winchmore Hill, but the top portion of the later "proper" box came second-hand from the old "Cowbridge" station at Hertford on what we later regarded as the link between the GN and GE stations there. It was built on a new brick base and the 20-lever frame came from Foxton where are larger frame had been fitted.

Best regards,

John

StevieG wrote: ↑Mon Jul 12, 2021 11:01 pm

Mickey wrote: ↑Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:09 am " The box stood be side the DOWN line Stevie?. I would have sworn I saw it standing be side the UP line?. Still may be it was a case of me seeing the box only once and for some reason it stayed in my mind it was be side the Up line maybe because I have a vague memory of riding on a Cravens unit heading Down road from Bowes Park and looking out from a right side window of the DMU and seeing the box appear and passing it standing be side the Up line as we approached Palmers Green station?. Oh well if you say it was be side the Down line then I presume it was standing be side the Down line. .... "

" .... Palmers Green s/box appears to be bit of a mystery box as no information or photographs can be found on it?.

Sounds like you're not really convinced Mickey.

No I never doubt your posts Stevie they are always 100% factually correct I was trying to recall if I did see the box standing be side the Up or Down line?.

thesignalman wrote: ↑Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:10 am Sometimes, Mickey, I find thinking too much about a vague memory can convince you of things that weren't really so. All this is many years ago now and I certainly don't remember much about this box other than what photographs and records show me.

Thanks John for posting those two photographs I appreciate you posting them both. Palmers Green was a unknown box to me only having seen it once from a passing train. The 'name board' issue I see now from your photographs John that it carried a fairly large name board at either end of the box maybe that vaguely stuck in my mind?. The box it's self was actually quite an attractive little GN box and nice on the eye to look at.

A connection with Palmers Green box and Ashburton Grove box which is currently being mentioned on the Hornsey ECS thread is when visiting Ashburton Grove box back in the summer of 1971 the signalman at the box that afternoon was an elderly Indian bloke who said that he had previously worked at Palmers Green box I recall him saying that in a conversation and his name has been mentioned before by Dave Cockle on here but I have forgotten it at this moment in time?.

The only chap I remember from the early 1970s being "regular" at Asburton Grove was one of the Creek family, a lovely old boy but never to be rushed, if you know what I mean. From the way he spoke, you would think Asburton Grove was as busy as Clapham Junction!

Stevie G may know better but I believe there were three signalmen on the area from that family.

John

thesignalman wrote: ↑Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:58 am The only chap I remember from the early 1970s being "regular" at Asburton Grove was one of the Creek family, a lovely old boy but never to be rushed, if you know what I mean. From the way he spoke, you would think Asburton Grove was as busy as Clapham Junction!

Stevie G may know better but I believe there were three signalmen on the area from that family.

With regards to the three signalmen brothers John I believe they were the Creek brothers and I believe one of them was a resident signalman at Wood Green Up Box No.2 although I never knew any of them personally and with regards to the signalman at Ashburton Grove in the summer of 1971 he was definitely an elderly Indian gentleman maybe in his late 50s or early 60s at the time and as I said Dave Cockle knew his name.

GN signal boxes were funny structures in so far as many of them looked different from each other but somehow they all seemed to have a similar look about them it's hard to explain unless you recall seeing many of them?. Most GN boxes were quite attractive looking signal boxes I thought.

With regards to Palmers Green box I would have liked to have worked that box for a few years it looked a nice looking box.

Hi Mickey,

According to the thread about the "Ashburton Grove Pullman" the gentleman you and Dave mentioned was "Clem" which is certainly a name I recall from the patch but I'm sure it wasn't he at Asburton Grove when i was working at Holloway South Up in 1972/3. The odd thing is that my memory is telling me that this particular Creek (who we, naturally, called Creaky!) was a fixture at Ashburton Grove for many years. So something doesn't quite follow there, which just shows how memory can convince you of the impossible. It is nigh on fifty years ago!

John

Mickey wrote: ↑Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:25 am

thesignalman wrote: ↑Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:58 am The only chap I remember from the early 1970s being "regular" at Asburton Grove was one of the Creek family, a lovely old boy but never to be rushed, if you know what I mean. From the way he spoke, you would think Asburton Grove was as busy as Clapham Junction!

Stevie G may know better but I believe there were three signalmen on the area from that family.

With regards to the three signalmen brothers John I believe they were the Creek brothers and I believe one of them was a resident signalman at Wood Green Up Box No.2 although I never knew any of them personally and with regards to the signalman at Ashburton Grove in the summer of 1971 he was definitely an elderly Indian gentleman maybe in his late 50s or early 60s at the time and as I said Dave Cockle knew his name.

GN signal boxes were funny structures in so far as many of them looked different from each other but somehow they all seemed to have a similar look about them it's hard to explain unless you recall seeing many of them?. Most GN boxes were quite attractive looking signal boxes I thought.

With regards to Palmers Green box I would have liked to have worked that box for a few years it looked a nice looking box.

I knew there were two 'Creeks' but have a vague recollection that there might have been a third.
Harry, indeed at Wood Green 2, was the only one I ever once met. Another was, I think, Len ?
Mickey, your description of the the chap at AG, had been at PG, fits someone I heard about, but never met, known as 'Clem' (so, Clement?) I think.

Mickey, by around '68 -'70, like Winchmore, Enfield C., Crews Hill, and Bayford, Palmers was normally only switched-in for the 'peaks' (subject to staff availability), so if you had gone signalman there, you'd have probably been on a 'split shift' covering both 'peaks'.