The LNER Encyclopedia

Empty Carriage working from Hornsey carriage sidings to Kings Cross during the diesel era mid 1960s to mid/late 1970s.

Until about 1976 (maybe a year or two later?) most main line departures from Kings Cross were formed of B.R.Mk1 & Mk2 coaches which would leave Hornsey carriage sidings about 2 hours before the train they would form departed Kings Cross so for example the 10:00am 'Flying Scotsman' departure from the terminus the coaching stock that formed the train would depart Hornsey carriage sidings & Hornsey Up Goods box around 8:00am usually hauled by a Brush type 2 with the steam heating pipes attached to B.R.Mk1s and ETH (Electric Train Heating) to B.R.Mk2s during the autumn and winter months.

Once departed Hornsey carriage sidings the train of ECS would slowly negotiate the points work outside Hornsey Up Goods box with the train being routed either via the Up goods no.1 line or the Up goods no.2 line for it's journey towards Harringay Up Goods box which was usually taken at a fairly slow speed passing Ferme Park sidings and then going underneath the Harringay flyover with both the Up goods no.1 line & Up goods no.2 line being worked under 'permissive block regulations' followed by a possible stop at Harringay Up Goods 'home board' before continuing on either along the Up goods no.1 line or the Up goods no.2 line towards Finsbury Park No.6 box to be possibly stopped at either the Up goods no.1 line or Up goods no.2 line 'home signal' with both signals being of the search light type colour light signals mounted on the old lattice T bracket post just to the north of No.6 box was a fairly normal occurrence. Once on the move from Finsbury Park No.6 it was either through Finsbury Park station via the back platform or through the Up slow line platform to Finsbury Park No.4 where the ECS mite be routed onto the Up carriage line or continue along the Up slow line towards Holloway South Up it all depended on which platforms the ECS was ultimately bound for at the terminus and also if Kings Cross was ready for the train?. Sometimes ECS trains formed of a loco and 12-14 main line coaches mite be held on the Up carriage line at the top of the Holloway bank for sometime before 'getting the road' to continue which by the summer of 1970 onward until 1976 was controlled by Holloway South Up box.

ECS trains that were to be starting from platforms on the west side of the old Kings Cross 1933 box would have to be routed along the Up slow line from Finsbury Park No.4 so when they were approaching Holloway South Up they could to be 'turned out' onto the Up fast line so as they could access the connection onto the Up relief line outside Gasworks tunnel in Belle Isle.

On some occasions it mite take 'ages' to get from Hornsey carriage sidings into 'the cross' being held at either or both Finsbury Park No.6 and also on the Up carriage line at the top of the Holloway bank or move down to stand outside Holloway South Up but on other occasions especially if the train of ECS was a late departing Hornsey carriage sidings the train mite get a good run into the terminus without being stopped at all but that wasn't to often.

You would be held at South Up because the Telegraph Lad there had to get permission from the Regulator at Kings Cross before sending the stock forward, and such permission was only given if the platform was empty - not only of the previous train but of the engine that had brought it in too.

One story I remember was once when the Flying Scotsman, which ALWAYS left from Platform 10 had to be replatformed to No8 owing to services being in a right mess. After the stock arrived, there was absolute uproar, because Hornsey had only washed the train on one side!

Happy days . . .

John

You would know John being a tele lad at Finsbury Park No.6, Holloway South Up & Kings Cross boxes.

Good story regarding the 10:00am departure only having the one side of the coaches washed ha ha ha...

Regarding the naming of the Up lines from Finsbury Park No.4 I mistakenly called one of the roads as the Up carriage line and thinking about it again was it-
Up fast line
Up slow line
Up goods line
Up coal line

I remember one non-story a nothing event regarding speaking to the signalman at Holloway South Up one Sunday in the second half of 1974. It was after I had left WGC box as a box lad and was a secondman at Kings Cross loco and I recall I was on a light engine with a driver and our loco was standing at those group of three stop arms at the top of 'the creep up' after coming up it from Finsbury Park No.2 (Ashburton Grove box had recently closed and had been abolished) and I got off the loco and down on the ballast to ring the signalman and I had already noticed Holloway South Up was 'off up the fast' with the Up fast line signal arm being off which was on that tall bracket post signal that carried the Up fast & Up slow lines home signals on the top of the Holloway bank (that use to be Holloway North Ups home signals) anyway after I told the 'bobby' in Holloway South Up that we were standing at his signal the bobby was making a point of telling me that he had the S&T in the box with him and they wanted him to pull off up the fast line but there wasn't any train approaching on the Up fast" so I said ok and he said "just wait for the signal" so I said "ok" and hung up and the next thing the Up fast line home signal went back to danger!.

He obviously had some S&T blokes in the box with him that Sunday doing some testing for some reason anyway as I said a non story but something that has always stayed in my memory.

I amended the last post above because after thinking about it again it WAS a Sunday and Ashburton Grove box had recently closed at that time and had been abolished because without looking at the Ashburton Grove box track layout again I don't think any trains or light engines could access 'the creep up' without Ashburton Grove box being open and the above event happened later in 1974 after Ashburton Grove had closed and Finsbury Park No.2 panel had taken over the area that's why we went up 'the creep up' on a Sunday.

I use to like those ECS diagrams as a secondman work a train of main line empties from Kings Cross on a Brush type 2 out to either Ferme Park or Bounds Green or Hornsey and then maybe bring another set of empties back into the cross.

Around this time of the evening 8:00-8:30 a couple of sets of overnight sleepers with BGs and GUVs attatched next to the loco (which became the rear of the train going down road from Kings Cross) would be departing Hornsey carriage sidings and heading up the goods lines towards Finsbury Park and eventually Kings Cross after being 'made up' in Hornsey carriage sidings around 6:00-6:30pm.

Mickey wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 12:40 pm " .... ECS trains that were to be starting from platforms on the west side of the old Kings Cross 1933 box would have to be routed along the Up slow line from Finsbury Park No.4 so when they were approaching Holloway South Up they could to be 'turned out' onto the Up fast line so as they could access the connection onto the Up relief line outside Gasworks tunnel in Belle Isle. .... "

Such trains, although perhaps often routed along the Up Slow from Fins. Park No.4 (they could even have been routed Up Fast from there if late and/or needed in KX urgently**), did not HAVE to be on the US line from there Mickey.
They could still have been routed via the Up Goods or Up Coal, because after the 1970 abolition of Holloway North Up box, and transfer of its much-simplified layout to South Up box control, there was sufficient pointwork left (not by chance I think) which still allowed trains on the Up Goods, Up Coal, and Up Carriage ('Creep-up') from that 3-armed plus Route Indicators bracket signal, to reach the Up Slow down Holloway bank, then Up Fast from South Up box, and so could then go UF - Up Relief line at Belle Isle.

** - [ Before about 1970 and the piecemeal simplifications in the area that had started to happen, ECS from Hornsey Carr. Sdgs. that were urgently wanted in KX could, if the box was open, have been routed to the Up Slow or Up Fast at Harringay, via the UG1-US and US-UF crossovers worked by "Harringay West Station" ('Harringay Passenger') box (the former of which had to be unbolted from Harringay Up Goods box).]

Yeah with regards to late running ECS from Hornsey carriage sidings heading up to 'the cross' no doubt they would have been turned out along the Up fast line at Finsbury Park No.4 Stevie that makes sense to do that.

With regards to trains accessing the Up slow to Up fast line turn out at Holloway South Up box from 'the creep up' or the Up coal line or the Up goods line at the top of the Holloway bank via that group of 3 stop signals on that bracket signal along with x3 individual stencil light indication boxes below each individual semaphore arm yeah you are right and in fact I have a hand drawn track layout of the whole of the Holloway area dated March/April 1974 and I shall have another look at that layout just to re-fresh my knowledge.

Also with regards to the connections at Harringay (passenger) being able to turn trains out from the Up goods no.1 line to the Up slow line or from the Up slow to Up fast line those connections may have been abolished around the time that I got to know that area around 1968-69 I don't believe I recall seeing that turn out from the Up slow to Up fast at Harringay (passenger) in 1970?.

In the summer of 1975 they took out a lot of redundant track work that connected with some or most of the Hornsey carriage sidings roads that were possibly not required for future use or they were going to completely relay Hornsey carriage sidings anyway the redundant track after being lifted was then cut up into manageable lengths and was then piled up outside Hornsey Up Goods box in readiness for removal this was all part of a larger picture of track rationalisation for the impending modernisation of the GN electrification of the Kings Cross area which also involved the re-modelling of the old Ferme Park Up yard sidings in readiness for the new Hornsey EMU depot to open in the later 1970s anyway for some reason I vaguely recall one of the goods lines was taken out-of-use between Hornsey Up Goods & Harringay Up Goods boxes so to take some of the pressure off the one remaining goods line between both boxes they instituted or reinstated a 'engine line' that ran between Hornsey Up Goods box to Harringay Up Goods box that ran via a sharpish left-hand curve just passed and beyond Hornsey Up Goods box and then after turning left it then ran in a eastwards direction possibly skirting the old redundant Hornsey loco sheds until it reached the far end before it then took another sharpish right-hand curve and straightened out again and continued running along bumpy lengths of track towards and underneath the Harringay flyover to arrive at Harringay Up Goods and in fact I have a feeling that this single line was a bi-directional single line as well?. The condition of this single track railway was of a temporary nature I don't think any ECS trains ever travelled along it?.

Hi Mickey more a motive power query if in loco/stock hauled days did you run light EX. FP to Cuffley /Hertford etc (where in steam days& I assume early Diesel too,) stock was held in the early AM or Rtn in late evening after the Peaks? thnks.jj

rockinjohn wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:37 am Hi Mickey more a motive power query if in loco/stock hauled days did you run light EX. FP to Cuffley /Hertford etc (where in steam days& I assume early Diesel too,) stock was held in the early AM or Rtn in late evening after the Peaks? thnks.jj

You mean where was the ECS held jj?.

On the Hertford branch sets of 'block enders' (about 6-7 coaches) were stabled at Gordon Hill one set in the Down bay platform also at Cuffley one set in the Up siding and at Hertford North two or maybe three sets in the Up sidings.

On the main line via Hatfield I recall seeing a set of 'block enders' stabled on the Up side at New Barnet and also maybe a set stabled on the Down side as well?. At Potters Bar until the late 1960s a couple of sets were stabled in the x2 road Up sidings north of the station also Hatfield had two maybe three sets stabled in the Up sidings outside Hatfield No.2 box and finally WGC had two maybe here sets stabled in the Up sidings just to the south of the station.

Hi Mickey think I meant did the loco "run light" to these carriage stabling points for the early city bound services, I know these two points had stabling for stock, but did the loco stay o/nite for these early morning/late finish turns & crews "ride the cushions" to &fro to FP or KX, I understand this would not have happened in steam days for obvious reasons.thnks jj

rockinjohn wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:50 am Hi Mickey think I meant did the loco "run light" to these carriage stabling points for the early city bound services, I know these two points had stabling for stock, but did the loco stay o/nite for these early morning/late finish turns & crews "ride the cushions" to &fro to FP or KX, I understand this would not have happened in steam days for obvious reasons.thnks jj

Yeah gotcha jj no the locos would run down light engine from Finsbury Park MPD maybe around 6:00-6:30am to Cuffley & Hertford North I was on those diagrams on around a dozen times during 1974. I remember when I was at WGC box as a 'box lad' during 1972-73 a Brush type 2 during the weekday mornings would always came down from Finsbury Park down the slow line around 7:00am and was then crossed over and ended up in the Up sidings to work one of the block ender sets that was stabled in the Up sidings just to the south of the station.

Hi Mickey thanks all clear to me now,one memory I have of early diesel days was around 4pm on the Up side Carriage sidings@ Finsbury Park containing 2 or 3 brand new Brush type2's& maybe an early BR Sulzer D50XX crewed awaiting the ECS run to the "X"/Moorgate or Broad St.for the Evening Peaks.jj

rockinjohn wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:45 pm Hi Mickey thanks all clear to me now,one memory I have of early diesel days was around 4pm on the Up side Carriage sidings@ Finsbury Park containing 2 or 3 brand new Brush type2's& maybe an early BR Sulzer D50XX crewed awaiting the ECS run to the "X"/Moorgate or Broad St.for the Evening Peaks.jj

You mean the Up side carriage sidings just off the north end of Finsbury Park Up station platforms jj which were known as GB sidings (GB being the single needle telegraph code for Finsbury Park No.6 box) yeah usually those sidings were usually full of 'block ender' sets being stabled outside the morning and evening peak hours with one or two sets being stabled along side the brick retaining wall where the 'train spotters' vantage point use to be also in those same sidings quite often one or two x3 car Rolls Royce DMU set could usually be seen plus the occasion Cravens DMU as well.

Meanwhile back in Hornsey carriage sidings...

Occasionally if you walked through the sidings and you happen to be passing a restaurant car or buffet car you may come across a few interesting items of maybe small unopened containers of strawberry jam or marmalade pots laying around.

Mickey wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:15 am

rockinjohn wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:50 am Hi Mickey think I meant did the loco "run light" to these carriage stabling points for the early city bound services, I know these two points had stabling for stock, but did the loco stay o/nite for these early morning/late finish turns & crews "ride the cushions" to &fro to FP or KX, I understand this would not have happened in steam days for obvious reasons.thnks jj

Yeah gotcha jj no the locos would run down light engine from Finsbury Park MPD maybe around 6:00-6:30am to Cuffley & Hertford North I was on those diagrams on around a dozen times during 1974. I remember when I was at WGC box as a 'box lad' during 1972-73 a Brush type 2 during the weekday mornings would always came down from Finsbury Park down the slow line around 7:00am and was then crossed over and ended up in the Up sidings to work one of the block ender sets that was stabled in the Up sidings just to the south of the station.

In winter Mickey, didn't a light engine run Down to these outstabled rakes (at like Barnet, Potters Bar, Cuffley, ...) rather earlier - like around 4am to 5am ; (and specially on Mondays if the stock had stood since Friday night) - to melt any frost & ice, and warm up the stock by steam-heating it, before it needed to run on service ?

Hi Mickey&Stevie G yep that was the sidings dont think the sidings near Holloway East used for carriage stk @ this time,now that was an awful lot of light loco running mileage & you mentioned WGC!the mind boggles on this starting/finishing point,have been reading a couple of websites that ref:Holloway Carriage sidings & the "creep" living alongside for so many years maybe things changed?folks seem to believe a lot of empty stock movements went fom Holloway Down Carriage sidings via Clarence Yard &the Creep""to the "X"when one considers most stk stabled was of the Pullman variety @ this location, I can vouch they never went that way!I can give you relevant web sites if required? if xtra shilllings/pdns been around I dont think I would have had such "tunnel"vision on this area or the London Metro.Area BR or LT.jj