The LNER Encyclopedia

I always thought that a junction was where two independent lines met. In cab-ride videos that I watch, I notice that it is now also used for crossovers, especially between two pairs of lines. When did this change come into use?

When people ignorant or unconcerned about the correct terminology misuse it and others similarly inclined copy them?

It's much worse when the junction is at a train station.

This has come up on a couple of YouTube channels, including Don Coffey, who is a driver for Northern Trains, so I assume it's official railway terminology now.

As for 'train station', I don't object to that too much, as it is the place where you catch a train - cf 'bus station'.

I'm with your original thoughts on this Pyewipe Junction; in general.
But it's one of those things where there have doubtless always been exceptions and variations.

I believe historically, the term was sometimes used in pre-grouping days when a previously dead-end line of one company became a through line by a new line of a different company making end-on connection with it.

In GN days, at Belle Isle (between the two tunnels just out of King's Cross), one of the signal boxes lasting to c.1967, proclaimed "Copenhagen Junction", yet the nearest to being a junction of 'independent lines' of what it controlled was one end of the very short, steep, connecting track down from the KX Goods Yard's many tracks at Goods & Mineral box, around 200 yards away. It was mostly used by locos from KX Top Shed going back to KX station.

Yet when the north end of the 'Hertford Loop' was completed as a double track line in the 1920s, the new 35-lever box controlling its grade-separated junction connections with the main line south of Stevenage was rather modestly only named "Langley" [although maps, atlases etc. rightly call the actual junction(s), 'Langley Junction' ].

More recently (the last 25 years ?), 'junction' has - perhaps generally not by central direction - slowly become adopted, as you say, for lesser connections and running crossovers.
The most obvious example known to me appeared in the 2000s when, south of Hatfield (Herts.), a new, fast, simple running crossover from the Up Slow to the immediately adjacent, parallel, Up Fast (and with the nearest other points at least two miles away), was officially named Marshmoor Junction ! - ( around 300 yards north of the site of the former Marshmoor box.)

StevieG wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:49 pm I believe historically, the term was sometimes used in pre-grouping days when a previously dead-end line of one company became a through line by a new line of a different company making end-on connection with it.

For example Little Bytham Junction, where the Midland met the M&GN end-on.

I have also thought it a bit strange to name a place usually 'in the middle of nowhere' that may only have a remote crossover or connection(s) between several running lines and nothing else and call it a 'Junction' which in historical railway terms isn't one.

Marshmoor Junction ha ha ha... Who thought that name up??.

The Institute for the Queen's English confirm that we have "Railway stations" and not "Train stations"
It is now confirmed that it is an Americanism.

52A wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:43 pm The Institute for the Queen's English confirm that we have "Railway stations" and not "Train stations"
It is now confirmed that it is an Americanism.

I don't know whether the Institute is making a prescriptive or descriptive statement. If the former, by what right do they make their statement? If the latter, they are plain wrong. What we personally prfer is another matter.

Kudu

52A wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:43 pm The Institute for the Queen's English confirm that we have "Railway stations" and not "Train stations"
It is now confirmed that it is an Americanism.

Mmmm

The only 'Queen's English Institute' That Google comes up with is in Mar del Plata, Argentina.

Pyewipe Junction wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:12 pm

StevieG wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:49 pm I believe historically, the term was sometimes used in pre-grouping days when a previously dead-end line of one company became a through line by a new line of a different company making end-on connection with it.

For example Little Bytham Junction, where the Midland met the M&GN end-on.

Not necessarily, perhaps. The KWVR named the signal box at Damems loop "Damems Junction", on an otherwise plain stretch of line, and as I understand it, this was Midland practice?

A junction, to me, is where two or more routes diverge/converge. Hitchin would be a good example. Langley, another. At a stretch I could lean a bit towards Stevie G's mentions of crossovers being termed 'junctions' because in the literal sense of the word they are the joining of two routings, albeit in that case, only a matter of metres apart.

On 'railway' or 'train' stations, I 'rail' at the term 'train station'. Here in Canada, they're 'railway stations'. Fair enough, as we have 'railways' and not the American 'railroads'.

Did Langley Junction box have the word 'Junction' included on the box name board?.

I have a vague feeling that both box name boards at either end of the box just had the name LANGLEY and not LANGLEY JUNCTION written on them and that box 'had a real junction' BUT I could be wrong it was 45 years ago the box was abolished?.

A later post...

The Langley Junction track layout and no mention of 'Junction' in the name?. https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/lner/E445.gif

markindurham wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:59 pmNot necessarily, perhaps. The KWVR named the signal box at Damems loop "Damems Junction", on an otherwise plain stretch of line, and as I understand it, this was Midland practice?

If Damems controls nothing but a loop it is not Midland Railway practice.

But it was Midland Railway practice to name boxes controlling "running junctions" (e.g. connections between Fast and Slow lines) with the suffix Junction. Not only that, but if it was a location where two tracks went to four and the additional lines were Goods lines, they would often be called "Goods Junction". But like all defined rules, there were exceptions . . .

John

The ends of all the dynamic loops on the Borders Railway are referred to as 'junctions' - eg from my house in Stow I can almost see Galabank Junction which is at the north end of the loop from Bowland Junction. At the planning stage of the project the term 'points' was used, which I would regard as far more appropriate.

Interested to read about the MR use of the word - I had noticed that the main function of Renishaw Park Goods Junction (on the Midland Old Road from Chesterfield to Rotherham, which I photographed a fair bit in the early '70s) was to control the north end of the quadruple track section from Foxlow Junction (a proper junction) but I didn't realise it was MR policy .

Bill