Refurbed HSTs. A folly?

[sandwhich]

I cannot help but think that the refurbishment of some of the HST fleet into four or five coach sets for Great Western and Scotrail has become something of a folly with costs rising and very late delivery of these trains. Would it not have been better to have ordered a new fleet of trains that would probably all have been in service by now. I think nostalgia has got the better by thinking that these trains could in some way or another can keep going. I am not decrying these trains, but they have been running for over forty years and have given fine service but they cannot go on forever and I do believe that the refurbed units probably will not go beyond ten years. We are where we are and if reports are correct Great Western may have some more of these units.

[Hatfield Shed]

The one person I know regularly using the ECML long distance, reckons the 800 units a folly. If the 90+mk4 sets were nearing life expiry, then the better plan would have been to replace with a new build of more of the same, there was nothng wrong with them from the passenger perspective.

[strang steel]

I don't think the shortened HSTs on the Cardiff - Taunton route are a folly, and I'm sure I am not alone.

Remember, it was not that long ago we North Somerset dwellers had to endure class 143s bouncing and screeching along, with passengers doing the same on their 1980s-style bus seats. Even fairly recently, we had more 150s than 158s on that service, so a Mk3 is like business class (even if it is 40 years old) to us fare paying passengers.

[sandwhich]

I do see your point strang steel after the tribulations of inferior units they must seem luxury but it may seem to have been cost effective to have built new units rather than have refurbished forty year old units.

[Mickey]

Never really liked them for a very long time after they took over the 'top link' jobs from the Deltics in 1976 out of Kings Cross but after watching some film of them recently 'in action' on the Midland main line out of St Pancras during the 1980s and possibly due to some sort of nostalgia for British Rail of the 1970s & 1980s I suppose they weren't to bad after all. Apparently they were restricted to 100mph on the Midland main line unless there was a second driver in the cab although long stretches of the Midland main line were restricted to 100mph running only anyway.

When I was at Junction Road Junction box on the T&H lines between late 1981-85 and from memory starting with the introduction of the 1982 winter time table we had x3 HST sets come out of Bounds Green CS for St Pancras during the early weekday mornings including on a Saturday morning between about 3:30-5:00am that all returned to Bounds Green CS during the same day evening for servicing & maintenance that took over from the Midland class 45 'peaks' on the top link jobs out of St Pancras. Originally it started in 1982 with x3 HST sets then around 1983-84 it dropped to x2 HST sets and by 1985-86 it was down to just one HST set before that ended during 1986 from memory.

[Pyewipe Junction]

I do see your point strang steel after the tribulations of inferior units they must seem luxury but it may seem to have been cost effective to have built new units rather than have refurbished forty year old units.

I recently saw a YouTube video of a refurbished HST set on an Aberdeen to Edinburgh train and I must say it was remarkably quiet and the interiors were nicely refurbished. The HSTs, with over 4000hp at their disposal, should not be at all stressed on the Scottish services, even allowing for the gradients and frequent stopping. They are apparently very popular with passengers.

One assumes that a detailed cost-benefit analysis was done of refurbished HST versus new units.

[sandwhich]

It would seem that the continuing use of Mark 3 stock and refurbed HSTs is being considered no longer feasible because of increased costs involved, what with the SWR shambles of starting to refurb the 442 fleet and then very quickly abandoning them and now Chiltern looking to replace their Mark 3 stock as soon as possible not only because of the costs involved but of complaints of Class 68 diesels in Marylebone, now Cross Country are rumoured to want their HSTs off lease and now even Great Western slowly starting to replace their fleet.
I am still of the opinion that new trains should have been built in the first place, the HSTs have more than paid their way.

[Hatfield Shed]

The RAIB report on the August 2020 HST derailment at Carmont (Stonehaven) makes interesting reading, regarding the crashworthiness of Mk3 vehicles.

I read it as check them for these factors, and scrap; no longer economically able to be modified to meet current requirements..

[Mickey]

When I was a 'box lad' at Welwyn Garden City s/box I am pretty sure one day we had the APT (Advanced Passenger Train) pass through the station along the Down fast line in 1973 (or was it 1972?) heading northwards.

On reflection, the APT looks-wise including both power cars and coaches in that off-white livery looked more 'space age' looking than the HST-125s did that came along a couple of years later.

[thesignalman]

Back in 2000, I travelled from Sydney to Newcastle on the Australian equivalent, and back a few days later. Inside the train were leaflets bragging as to how similar they were to the British High Speed Train. I said "that means we'll break down then".

On the return trip we did! We instantly alighted and joined a local service, followed about ten minutes later by the rest of the population aboard after they were turfed off. They thought we must be "locals" as we knew what to do . . .

Incidentally, what must be the shortest formation of an HST in passenger service must have been a two-car on the Looe branch during desperate DMU shortages.

John

[Hatfield Shed]

...On reflection, the APT looks-wise including both power cars and coaches in that off-white livery looked more 'space age' looking than the HST-125s did that came along a couple of years later.

The 'stuff inside' was considerably advanced over existing UK rail vehicle technology too, much of the design deriving from aerospace technique. Too advanced for BR to contemplate.

[Mickey]

Back in 2000, I travelled from Sydney to Newcastle on the Australian equivalent, and back a few days later. Inside the train were leaflets bragging as to how similar they were to the British High Speed Train. I said "that means we'll break down then".

Hahaha good one John typical British railwayman's sense of humor.

Regarding the APT on your old London Midland Region stomping ground John a short piece of film that was shot by a British Transport Film unit circa 1972/73 crops up on a 'cab ride' DVD of a cab ride from St.Pancras to Market Harborough in 1971 and features the APT 'flying passed' Luton South box along with a fleeting glimpse inside Luton South box and from memory the signalman putting a lever or two back in the lever frame after the passing of the APT?.

[Mickey]

...On reflection, the APT looks-wise including both power cars and coaches in that off-white livery looked more 'space age' looking than the HST-125s did that came along a couple of years later.

The 'stuff inside' was considerably advanced over existing UK rail vehicle technology too, much of the design deriving from aerospace technique. Too advanced for BR to contemplate.

I can believe that Hatfield Shed not that I have ever been into anything 'modern' when it comes to Britain's railways because anything that came after the 1970s on the railways I have no interest in but I must admit though the APT was quite an impressive looking train back in 1972/73 although pity it didn't work?.

[Hatfield Shed]

... the APT was quite an impressive looking train back in 1972/73 although pity it didn't work?.

The APT design was compromised by a requirement to work on the railway network 'as found'. The French in particular had the better idea from an engineering perspective, build new lines optimised for scream along speed operation. But then L'Etat is able to overrule opposition somewhat more forcefully than is possible in a genuine democracy...

[richard]

And to confuse things there were two APTs. The APT-E gas turbine, and the later electric APT-P which entered service sort-of. The latter could have been a success but was underfunded and pushed out before it was ready.

Over the past century, there have been a lot of attempts at railway steam turbines and gas turbines - none have been a success. The best (from memory) was a French attempt which they also sold to Amtrak but they didn't stay in service that long (years rather than decades).
The ideal duty cycle for a turbine suits continuous running - great for static power or a ship. Not good for road or rail.
So even when someone made one that didn't leak, they could typically produce great power output but failed miserably when it came to efficiency.