The LNER Encyclopedia

Anybody worked out how this could happen? It must have been some gale to shear the twistlocks holding them to the flats - or were the wagons blown over as well?

Wasn't there a famous incident in Co Donegal in the 1920s when a narrow gauge passenger train was blown over ?

Wagons were not blown over, were the twistlocks engaged?

Owencarrow 1925, 4 fatalities.

I saw my First DRS/WH Malcolm because of this, being a Lorry Spotter, and been round their Headquarters at Brockfield, only problem, because of failing light I only got a blurred photo, as DVD Camcorder takes a while to come on, and this was in YORK, while waiting for Bittern!

52A wrote:Were the twistlocks engaged?

I'd have thought that's got to be the first question asked, and answered, by whoever is investigating (RAIB?) - I think 2 separate trains were involved, so one would have to wonder if there's been a systemic failure of train preparation, if the twistlocks are up the job, etc. etc.

Yes, that's no doubt the first question to be answered. Can't recall hearing of anything similar with a liner train before. Has it happened with lorries in the past, does anyone know?

Fliners have been running since the mid sixties and I have never heard of such an incident. One of the containers appeared to be a tank with, one would presume, a little less cross sectional area than a box container. Looks decidely fishy to me, thank goodness a passenger train was not passing at the time!

The early type of container flat wagon was the FGA which had a twistlock fastener to hold down the container, however these have all been scrapped now. The latest type of wagon is the KFA, these were mostly built in the 80s and have a flip over spigot to locate the container which relies on its weight to hold it in position.
The fact that this has never happened before shows that something very unusual happened on Friday night, I can imagine that the wind could be exceptional at Shap, but Milton Keynes is much more sheltered and not somewhere that you could envisage this happening. There was possibly another factor involved that has not become apparent yet.
It is rather worrying that this has happened, the consequences of another train hitting the containers does not bear thinking about.

60041 wrote:The early type of container flat wagon was the FGA which had a twistlock fastener to hold down the container, however these have all been scrapped now. The latest type of wagon is the KFA, these were mostly built in the 80s and have a flip over spigot to locate the container which relies on its weight to hold it in position.
The fact that this has never happened before shows that something very unusual happened on Friday night, I can imagine that the wind could be exceptional at Shap, but Milton Keynes is much more sheltered and not somewhere that you could envisage this happening. There was possibly another factor involved that has not become apparent yet.
It is rather worrying that this has happened, the consequences of another train hitting the containers does not bear thinking about.

The ECML around your location has seen some quite remarkable conditions as I have personally experienced over many years (since the fifties!). I have also worked on Shap but I found it no more exposed than the ECML in an easterly gale. I have never heard of anything (apart from wagon sheets) blowing off trains like this. Buckingham is way down south but I hardly think that weather conditions should have resulted in a near disaster down there either. Relying on gravity to hold empty boxes on trains running at 75 MPH is just plainly ridiculous, possibly an accident waiting to happen. But of course someone must have done A RISK ASSESMENT, the saviour of the human race!

I can certainly vouch for the fact that things can get a bit windy around these parts. From where I am sitting I can see RAF Boulmer which has a weather station, and last week it recorded gusts of 70 mph +, so I can only hope that whatever went wrong at Shap and Milton Keynes were isolated incidents as I don't fancy having a shipping container dumped in the garden!

60041 wrote
[whatever went wrong at Shap and Milton Keynes were isolated incidents as I don't fancy having a shipping container dumped in the garden!]

I wished they arrived that easily.. Though with this method of delivery i guess it's a bit hit and miss as to which way up it is.

Been making discreet enquiries and informed sources tell me that:

1. Containers had the older twist-lock fastenings that are NOT so positive
as the more modern latch mechanism

2. Containers were empty. Typically an 20ft container weighs 2,300kg
(circa 2 tons) and a 40ft container 4,000kg (circa 4 tons)

3. The Met Office advise that wind speeds were 50-60mph but higher
winds were experienced through the funnelling effects of valleys. To
this might be added the windspeed of the train motion

4. This is the first time, to everyone's knowledge, that containers
have been physically blown from a UK train in motion

From the RAIB website -

"The RAIB is carrying out an investigation into two separate incidents involving freight containers being blown off freight trains, at Cheddington in Bedfordshire and at Hardendale in Cumbria. Both incidents occurred early on 1 March 2008.

The first incident, at Cheddington, on the down fast line of the West Coast Main Line (WCML) between Hemel Hempstead and Leighton Buzzard, occurred at approximately 02:30 hrs. A freight train consisting of a Class 56 locomotive hauling 20 container flat wagons lost 2 empty containers while travelling at approximately 70 mph. The detached containers blocked the running lines and caused damage to overhead line equipment (OLE) and to the track. The line was closed until the evening of 1 March.

The second incident occurred at approximately 03:15 hrs adjacent to Hardendale Quarry, between Tebay and Penrith, on the down line of the WCML. A freight train, consisting of two Class 86 locomotives hauling 20 container flat wagons, lost five empty containers from the rearmost four wagons of the train while travelling at approximately 70 mph. The detached containers in this case also blocked running lines and again caused damage to the OLE and track. The line was closed until the early hours of 3 March.

Both incidents took place at a time of high cross winds, and in both cases there were no injuries.

On the basis of the RAIB’s preliminary examinations, there is currently no indication that the driving or maintenance of the train, or the condition of the track, contributed to the two incidents. Some common factors have emerged, including high cross winds, the location of the incident sites on embankments, the unladen condition of the containers, the type of wagon involved and the running speeds of the trains.

The ongoing investigation will focus on, but not be limited to, the aerodynamics effects of the cross winds on the containers, the design of the wagon, how containers are retained on wagons and any operational restrictions on container wagons in high winds."

Having just seen pictures of the Cheddington incident my earlier comment about not knowing which way the container would end up seems rather to the point. It looks like one container has ended up standing on its end, doors down..

Just found this rumaging round the net

http://jcp.fotopic.net/p48721601.html

from this angle it looks doors up..

Bring back Condor and metrovicks pulling it.