The LNER Encyclopedia

Can anyone tell me when the blue livery and double arrow graphic first made an appearance?

The official date was May 28th 1964, see http://www.derbysulzers.com/64.html when the new XP64 set ran a return journey from Marylebone to High Wycombe behind D1733 which displayed the new arrow symbols under all four cab windows but on orangey-red panels (as seen here - https://www.flickr.com/photos/david_chr ... Rkd-9EP3Cs).

Whether the new logo was visible on the loco prior to the official launch, I don't know.

That may not be the final design - it certainly was not the approved corporate usage - and that was definitely not the XP64 stock in the image but ordinary BR standard coaches so the two seemingly do not tie together. I recall certain BR offices being issued with copies of the new BR Design Manual in 1965, and on this site is a copy of that Manual gives the official approved date of the logo as April 1965: http://www.doublearrow.co.uk/manual.htm

I had until recently, when I passed them on to someone with a greater interest in that period than myself, official paint chips for Rail Red, Blue and Grey from that manual.

I couldn't find a link to a photo of D1733 with the XP64 stock, so that photo was the next best thing. It also illustrates the incorrect assumption (quoted as fact in much railway literature) that the stickers with the double arrows were removed immediately after the May press launch.

The photo is of the loco at Wellington on 22nd June 1964, in other words almost a full month after the official XP64 launch, so I presume the stickers remained in place for at least 4 weeks. I have another undated photo somewhere (not mine unfortunately) of D1733 in exactly the same livery working a milk train.

It really does depend on whether you count the XP64 experiment as the time that "blue livery and the double arrow graphic first made an appearance", which is what the OP asked, or restrict that description to the full implementation of the corporate blue culture.

If it is to be the latter, then it would be the 9th June 1966 with the first loco being D8048.

Just to point out that the change to the corporate "blue with double arrow" was not made in one step.
Many locos on the LM were repainted blue (possibly at depots) with the old BR crest being painted around - confirmation being that the background to the crest inside the outline had a green background. This blue seemed to be different from the official colour - greener - though I accept that colour film of the day did not represent this accurately. At the time, I put it down to the effect of one coat of blue allowing the green underneath to give a cast.
Doncaster seemed to prefer "touch up and revarnish" (TUV) of the green but applied the corporate double arrow and the new typeface for D and numbers (in white) to it. Brush 2s (all maintained at Doncaster) in blue were noticeably rare for a quite a while after 1966.
I have photos to demonstrate this, but my slide scanner produces bitmap rather than jpeg files, so I can't attach them...

1H was 2E wrote:I have photos to demonstrate this, but my slide scanner produces bitmap rather than jpeg files, so I can't attach them...

If you have MS Paint then you might be able to open the bitmap file in it but save it with a different image file extension - useful for converting say png to jpg and so on.

Thanks for the encouragement, 65447. I used to be able to load bitmap files - maybe it's one of the benefits of loading Windows 8-1 (totally involuntarily).
These are the two examples I mentioned; D5824 at Tinsley showing Doncaster's reluctance to use blue paint; and D5021 at Crewe South in back street garage standard blue.
These are straight scans, didn't alter the colour balance. On Gratispool and Ilford because I sadly couldn't afford Agfa- and it shows.

1H was 2E wrote:Just to point out that the change to the corporate "blue with double arrow" was not made in one step.
Many locos on the LM were repainted blue (possibly at depots) with the old BR crest being painted around - confirmation being that the background to the crest inside the outline had a green background. This blue seemed to be different from the official colour - greener - though I accept that colour film of the day did not represent this accurately. At the time, I put it down to the effect of one coat of blue allowing the green underneath to give a cast.
Doncaster seemed to prefer "touch up and revarnish" (TUV) of the green but applied the corporate double arrow and the new typeface for D and numbers (in white) to it. Brush 2s (all maintained at Doncaster) in blue were noticeably rare for a quite a while after 1966.
I have photos to demonstrate this, but my slide scanner produces bitmap rather than jpeg files, so I can't attach them...

I wonder if this might have been due to the re-engine programme, which would have meant most of them would not have been due for a major overhaul until well after the blue era began?

Was the blue applied earlier to Electric locos rail blue or another shade altogether?

That is the oft-debated question. I believe that it was a different shade, and to me it certainly looks lighter and more "metallic".

Photos of electrics in original condition can be found, as here - https://www.flickr.com/photos/barkingbi ... Dd6-dGCfTT but it is not easy to find one with a BR double arrow blue loco alongside for comparison.


EDIT: After writing that I kept on searching, and came across this photo which, if not definite certainly suggests that BR blue was a darker shade - https://www.flickr.com/photos/geoffsima ... aqV-mU66Fc

Edited; wrong photo attached

I can't help with the 16t mineral, but the loco in that photo is an AL5, later to become 85005, but not an AL6.

strang steel wrote:That is the oft-debated question. I believe that it was a different shade, and to me it certainly looks lighter and more "metallic".

Photos of electrics in original condition can be found, as here - https://www.flickr.com/photos/barkingbi ... Dd6-dGCfTT but it is not easy to find one with a BR double arrow blue loco alongside for comparison.


EDIT: After writing that I kept on searching, and came across this photo which, if not definite certainly suggests that BR blue was a darker shade - https://www.flickr.com/photos/geoffsima ... aqV-mU66Fc

Yes SS I am a member of the fb Woodhead group and early EM2s certainly appear to have a shade of blue much lighter than the later ones but there again is that degredation of film.
George52D

Slightly off topic, but confirming 65447's observations, the public timetables first used the 'double arrow' on the cover in June 1965, as far as I can tell.

John

As stated earlier the British Rail Corporate Image of 1965 was a complete new branding creation with all elements specified, most if not all of which were created, developed or devised for it. The Rail alphabet is one good example and the house colours were another, as explained here: http://www.doublearrow.co.uk/manual/1_30.1965-04.gif . Although these were later added to relevant British Standards it is obvious that, as brand new colours, they could not be the same as those used previously although they might be similar shades or hues. The BS colour references are given here: http://www.doublearrow.co.uk/manual/1_30.1969-01.gif . The XP64 stock was a slightly lighter shade than the later Rail Blue.

This site might be helpful and informative but the usual caveats apply for secondary sources: http://www.railblue.com/rail_blue_history.htm