GCR Derailment

[Saint Johnstoun]

I was not referring to the loco crew who were obviously not with it at the time of the incident, but if any observers from the trackside could confirm the position of the point blades out onto the main line!

Not being fully conversant with the signalling arrangements at Quorn, I presume the lower quadrant signal on the lattice post is that applying to release from the siding? It was certainly at danger at the time of the derailment.

If that was ignored without instruction from elsewhere a case of SPAD!

The rear view from the Ivatt should be reasonably good but of course the trap point was on the opposite side to the driver, and it would have been up to the fireman to spot anything amiss.

An old NB man I knew said that it was almost mandatory to observe trap point blades in certain locations before passing over them expressly in bad weather conditions.

[John Palmer]

The lower quadrant mounted on a GNR lattice mast is indeed the signal that controls exit from the down lie-by; it is worked by lever 6 in the box. Lever 7 controls the points from down main to lie-by as well as the trap on which the locomotive was derailed. Both are apparently operated by the same rod run. Lever 8 works a disc signal controlling a movement from down main to lie-by: the complement of the movement controlled by lever 6. A picture showing most of the relevant ground connections to the lie-by can be found at http://standard462.zenfolio.com/img/s3/ ... 0142-3.jpg

What isn’t clear to me about the layout is whether the trap points are detected. In the picture mentioned I can see what appears to be a detector immediately in rear of disc 8, on the right hand side of the image, suggesting that the switch tongues for the points leading from down main are detected. However, there is no obvious sign of a detector adjacent to the trap points on which the derailment occurred.

Clearly the locomotive passed signal 6 at danger. I have seen reports to the effect that the train crew had been authorised to carry out such a movement, but whether that was the case I do not know.

[Mickey]

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[John Palmer]

Micky, apparently neither the trap nor the connection from down main were track circuited.

I tried to make out the extent of the detection arrangements in the light of Saint Johnstoun’s comment that mechanical failure might have been involved, since the nature of the detection arrangements might have a bearing on whether 6 signal could be cleared in the event of such a failure.

[Mickey]

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[Brown Jack]

Hi,

The engine is now fixed and back on track, can't we just wait for the findings instead of all this speculation, please.

Trev

[Mickey]

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[1H was 2E]

Regarding the criticism of "speculation". Micky has pointed out what any conscientious signalman would have done. That's not speculation . The best way for speculation to end would be for the railway to make some sort of statement about the accident in the context of what is shown in the video. In the sixties, when these railways were getting going everything you now see was bought using donations. There was a lot less spare cash about then and a donation of £10 was half a week's total wages. People made real sacrifices in money and time in those days. With no statement from the railway to the contrary it would be easy to deduce from the video that an attitude of insouciance or even total indifference was a factor. I really hope that this is not the case because it would be an insult to those who gave freely in good faith in the past.

[StevieG]

Hi,

The engine is now fixed and back on track, can't we just wait for the findings instead of all this speculation, please.

Trev

Your probably right Trev, it will be interesting to findout what actually happened?.

It certainly will.

Meanwhile, what does the video incontrovertibly tell us? -

- A train, at first stationary, then moves off from a signal still at Danger.
- Some onlookers of unknown familiarity with railway operations, some three tracks away, appear to have little reaction to what is happening.
- The locomotive becomes derailed on some trap points and stops.

Everything else in terms of actions, reasons, thinking, etc. which actually led to the incident, appears, as far as I am aware, not to be widely known.

I'm with Trev on this for now, but let's hope there is at least one formal statement and/or comprehensive investigation report eventually made available to explain all.

[Saint Johnstoun]

Forget the speculation - from the lack of information coming forth about this event one suspects that once somebody does speak out that human error be the cause. If mechanical failure was the reason I am sure we would have heard by now.

It seems very strange from video evidence that there was nobody visibly taking any interest in the train from the signal box, then all of a sudden a 'pop' from the whistle and the train moved off - bump - bump!

Signal at danger and trap points open so as the trap points are operated by the same lever as the main turnout/??

[Mickey]

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[PinzaC55]

Forget the speculation - from the lack of information coming forth about this event one suspects that once somebody does speak out that human error be the cause. If mechanical failure was the reason I am sure we would have heard by now.

It seems very strange from video evidence that there was nobody visibly taking any interest in the train from the signal box, then all of a sudden a 'pop' from the whistle and the train moved off - bump - bump!

Yes it is a bit of a strange one to be honest, no real activity seems to be happening after the loco drops off the traps, no one is seen getting down off the loco and rushing over to the box to findout what went wrong and no one is seen opening the s/box door and showing any interest in whats just happened outside the box all a bit odd to be honest?.

I would imagine the occupants of the cab were lying on their backs with their feet in the air?

[Mickey]

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[PinzaC55]

I would imagine the occupants of the cab were lying on their backs with their feet in the air?

The loco was only moving just above walking pace when it dropped off the traps although nodoubt the crew had a shaking up!.

It was a joke Micky.

[B4411]

The most recent "Steam Railway" is reporting that the GCR has declined to comment on the basis that disciplinary action is in the offing, and the enquiries are centering on the conduct of those in the SB and on the FP. No surprises there then, but it strongly suggests human or procedural failure and not equipment failure. The magazine is also reporting that the GCR quite properly and prudently notified both ORR and RAIB immediately and that both bodies opted not to investigate.

Hopefully the GCR will release a statement in due course; personally I feel that it would be a mistake not to.

Whatever the cause, though, it cannot be denied that it made the gala a great deal more interesting! My only regret is that there doesn't seem to be any footage or photos of the actual recovery operation. Perhaps unsurprising since it took place at night, but what a missed photo-oportunity! It would also not have been a particularly straightforward recovery using only a single breakdown crane, and an account of how it was undertaken would be interesting.