KX signal box?

[Mickey]

You're just about right regarding being staffed by ex 'GN', then progressively 'GE' signalmen Mickey (several of the latter transferring from the Temple Mills boxes).
Later (was it after Railtrack took over from BR?) people could move between the former BR Regions, and I know that KX gained one man from a large WR Panel box.
But there were no 'off-streeters' during the previously quoted years when I was there, though it seems quite possible that that might have happened later on.

With regards to transferring between B.R. regions as you would know Stevie it was known as a INTER REGIONAL TRANSFER and wasn't a easy matter to do back in the day before the 'break up of British Rail' in the mid-1990s although I did actually do it when I transferred from Victoria Park s/box in 1981 which at the time was on the Eastern Region to transferring to Junction Road Junction s/box which at that time was on the London Midland Region. So what I had to do was after being accepted to fill a vacant position at Junction Road s/box I had to in effect resign my position as a 'signalman' at Victoria Park and then 'drop to the grade of Railman' before transferring to Junction Road Junction box and learning the box for several weeks and then after 'passing out' the box being reinstated in the grade of 'signalman' again. The standing 'joke' at was Upper Holloway s/box back in the late 1980s and early 1990s until the break up of British Rail circa 1997 was that a signalman at Upper Holloway s/box which was during that time on the London Midland Region could apply for another signalman's position at CARLISLE 300 miles away but couldn't easily apply for the a signalman's vacant position at the box 'next door' at Harringay Park Junction that was only ONE MILE AWAY because that box was on the Eastern Region before becoming the Anglia Region by the late 1980s.

Back in the day on B.R. a railwayman's seniority counted for a lot...

Back when the railways were under British Railways ownership and there were regional identities and boundaries a railwayman's seniority counted for a lot back then (the date that an individual railwayman's service commenced) and I presume it was a fair way of recruiting railwaymen from other regions of B.R. (not that many changed B.R. regions that I was aware of?) that they had to 'drop back to the grade of railwayman' otherwise for example a signalman who had 25 years service behind him on one region could have 'walk into a plum job' on another region that a signalman on that region assumed he would have got on 'his own region' or more usually 'his own area' but he would have been 'passed over' for that position because the signalman from another region had longer service and would have been the senior applicant and would have been given the position. These days under Network Rail anyone can go anywhere in the country plus a big difference these days from B.R. days is that job applicants are given the position on there individual merit and NOT ON LENGTH OF SERVICE they have behind them as it was on B.R..

When I was at Camden Road box between 1992-2004 I recall hearing maybe around 1996/97 that Dave Wootton had just retired from Kings Cross PSB. Dave was possibly one of the last of the GN signalmen who was around during the 1960s and the era of mechanical signalling on the GN. Anyway although I knew his name he didn't know me although many years earlier circa 1973/74 when I was a telegraph lad at Welwyn Garden City box I vaguely recall speaking to Dave on the box phone a few times probably when he was working the Langley (Junction) box NX panel so that would have been either late 1973 or early 1974 just before I left WGC box for Kings Cross loco. I believe Dave was a relief signalman around the Hitchin, Stevenage & Langley (Junction) area during the 1960s and early 1970s also I believe Dave's father Jack Wootton was a onetime signalman at Welwyn North possibly back in the 1940s, 1950s & early 1960s?.

[Mickey]

With reference to Kings Cross 'C' s/box on the widened lines located on the westbound platform at Kings Cross Met station during the 1970-1976 period how far did the box area of control extend from?. Was it after passing Farringdon station going westbound or did it control the whole double-track route as far as the buffer stops at Moorgate station?.

[StevieG]

Farringdon box used to control all four roads back then Mickey, as far east I think as Moorgate at least, although you may recall the striking architecture of the former Aldersgate & Barbican box still standing at the west end of the centre island platform there.
So KX LT box ('C') fringed with Farringdon somewhere in between them.

[Mickey]

Farringdon box used to control all four roads back then Mickey, as far east I think as Moorgate at least, although you may recall the striking architecture of the former Aldersgate & Barbican box still standing at the west end of the center island platform there.
So XK LT box ('C') fringed with Farringdon somewhere in between them.

Thanks, Stevie I guessed either you or John would know for certain. I was thinking of 'knocking up' a simple drawing of a track diagram of Kings Cross 'C' box circa 1974-75 of the double-track route from the buffer stops at Moorgate through Barbican and Farringdon stations to just beyond Kings Cross Metropolitan Junction leading to and from the London Midland Region at Islip Street/Kentish Town and the Eastern Region towards the 'Hotel curve' and platform no.14 at Kings Cross and coming down from Kings Cross York Road station (over the Up line) towards Kings Cross Metropolitan Junction and the widened lines although as for the actual 'signal sighting' along the entire route meaning where were the running line signals sighted(?) I would have to guess where those signals would have been located as the last time that I traveled over the widened lines in both directions between Kings Cross York Road station and Moorgate and the return journey from Moorgate back to Kings Cross platform no.14 (and beyond) was on the front of a Brush type 2 (class 31) loco around the spring/summer of 1975.

I was thinking of putting this 'track diagram' on a wall in my place at home.

[Mickey]

At Goods And Mineral Junction s/box (Belle Isle) until September 1975 and the box closing.

I presume that the subsidiary signal arm (no.66) underneath (no.67) the Down Goods line starting signal towards Holloway South Down (s/box) over the Down Goods line (these two arms were mounted on a medium size straight metal tubular post and was painted grey in colour and stood near the entrance to Copenhagen Goods line tunnel) was a S shunt ahead signal arm for any 'long shunting movements' coming out of the Goods yard and requiring to go into Copenhagen Goods line tunnel before propelling back out of the tunnel and into the Goods yard again. I presume if that was the case I presume also that the 3-3-2 bell code shunting into forward section and the 8 bells shunt withdrawn was authorised between Goods And Mineral Junction and Holloway South Down boxes over the Down Goods line.

[StevieG]

I never read the box's Special Instructions during my several visits Mickey, and only witnessed what was done in practice. So sadly (& strangely you may think) Mickey, I can't say whether that Reg. was actually authorised.

All I can say is that, despite the D & UG lines to/from Holloway being worked under AB Regs. (probably because Permissive working, as applied on all other other Goods lines in the London/Herts. area would not have been adequately safe owing to Copenhagen Tunnel's west bore being 'in-section'), I never saw 3-3-2 / 8 utilised when 66 Shunt-Ahead was used. If required, it was just cleared providing that the TC running in advance from the signal for a short-ish distance in the tunnel, was clear.

Maybe that was the official method, remembering that although AB applied, it was 'only' a Goods line.

[Mickey]

Thanks Stevie I presumed either you or John would know.

Shunting movements into and out of Copenhagen Goods line tunnel between Goods And Mineral Junction and Holloway South Down boxes...

The authorised way of 'Shunting Into Forward Section' between two boxes at least during B.R. days and between Goods And Mineral Junction and Holloway South Down in particular was that it was probably written into the box instructions of both boxes that it was an authorised movement to occur between both boxes on the Down Goods line. On the procedure it's self on sending a 'shunting movement' passing Goods And Mineral's Down Goods line starting signal no.67 for shunting purposes only firstly providing the Absolute block section was clear between Goods And Mineral Junction and Holloway South Down over the Down Goods line the signalman in Goods And Mineral Junction would (send the call attention 1-beat on the block bell first which I doubt if that would have happened normally unless a Signalling Inspector was in the box as well?) send the 3-3-2 bell Shunting Into Forward Section to Holloway South Down and once it was acknowledged by the Holloway South Down signalman by repeating back the 3-3-2 bells he would then place the block indicator on the Down Goods line to the Train on Line position (I doubt if the Holloway South Down signalman would have needed to give a 'Line Clear' first being that no.66 'shunt ahead' subsidiary miniature signal arm underneath the Goods And Mineral Down Goods line starting signal no.67 was only for shunting purposes at Goods And Mineral Junction which I presume no.66 subsidiary signal arm was also worked as a 'free lever' and not requiring a Line Clear release from Holloway South Down) while in Goods And Mineral Junction the signalman would 'clear' no.66 subsidiary shunt ahead miniature arm for the shunt movement to proceed passed no.67 (the Down Goods line starting signal) and on into Copenhagen Goods line tunnel. Then once the shunting movement was completed and was 'back inside' the Goods And Mineral's Down Goods line starter no.67 the Goods And Mineral signalman would then send 8 (bells) Shunt Withdrawn to Holloway South Down where the 'South Down' signalman would acknowledge the 8 bells and restore the Down Goods line block instrument back to the 'Line Blocked' or 'normal' position again.

Possibly during GNR days the method of working between Goods And Mineral Junction and Holloway South Down over the Down Goods line in regards to a 'long shunting movement' into and out of Copenhagen Goods line tunnel 'may have been' performed differently' in those far off days I don't know?.