"Ware" on 313's blinds

[sandwhich]

A few years ago when it was WAGN Railway a number of class 317 units had virtually every station on the system on the destination blinds starting with Angel Road and finishing with Welham Green and Welwyn Garden City, these blinds included such bustling hubs like Bayford and Brookmans Park, it lasted about a year before they were replaced, someones weird and wonderful idea with a good salary to match.
Talking of terminating services, before 1976 there were a number of trains both DMU and loco hauled that terminated and started at New Barnet, Potters Bar, Hatfield as well as Welwyn Garden City, then there was Grange Park, Gordon Hill (still) Cuffley and as now Hertford North. Not so long ago they even squeezed in a service that started at Bowes Park but then was extended to Gordon Hill.

[Mickey]

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[Mickey]

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[sandwhich]

I also remember the 312 units that entered service from Kings Cross in 1978 having a number of destinations on the blinds other than Kings Cross,Letchworth and Royston, Cambridge, Huntingdon, Peterborough, Ipswich, Harwich and Felixtowe were on these blinds, all except Felixstowe were electrified.

[Mickey]

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[StevieG]

Worksop was something like this.
Trains heading East towards Retford had a clear signal all the way, but once they stopped at the platform the signal was put a danger and the gates opened.

This was held like this until the guard signaled to go and the driver blew the whistle, then the gates were closed and the signal cleared again

...Except that, IIRC, no theory or practice mentioned for Ware involved putting a cleared signal back to Danger; then clearing it again, before the train moved off past it.

One example of that sort of practice which I did know of, was on the 'brown'(sorry, chocolate) railway, where, in two places with level crossings at the arrival end of a station platform, a Starting signal at the departure end, and absolutely no track circuits at all, it was normal to clear the signals (all semaphore) right through (including the Distant) for a stopping train.
But, as the Starting signal lever while Reverse, locked the gates-lock lever with the gates across the road (presumably, as it was, in the circumstances, the only way to guarantee the gates couldn't be unlocked and opened before a train had passed clear), the crossing had to stay closed to road traffic while the train (already passed) was in the platform for station duties, and until it departed and passed the signal ; unless, as had become oft-practice, once the train had come to a stand, the Starter was put back to Danger, the gates unlocked, and the signal quickly pulled 'off' again, before the gates were opened up to let the road world get on the move again.
However, about 1966, a memo was known to have arrived from the local area's District Inspector's office, saying this practice had been noted and must cease forthwith, as it was in contravention of Rule xx (whatever it was) !

[manna]

G'Day Gents

Oh, yes, I remember winding those handles round, Bring in 5S17, take out 5A**, bring in 5S** take out 5A**, and you had to change all the numbers again at Bounds Green, when you changed ends, although, I did try to get them straight.

manna

[Mickey]

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[Mr Bunt]

Unless it has changed since I was signalman at Ware, the signalling allows a train to run into Ware station with the barriers raised, and turn round back to London without lowering the barriers. Even if the barriers were lowered, two minutes after the train came to a stand in the platform the barriers could be raised again.

Interesting?. If a train was brought into the station with the road barriers raised would the driver receive a subsidary signal (like a Warning signal?) at Ware's first controlled signal at the south end of Ware station into the station platform or just a Yellow main aspect?.

If the driver mis-judged his stopping distance and went onto or over the crossing with the barriers raised i bet there would be some questions asked?. I bet since Ware s/box closed (circa 2002?) that facility has either been modified of discontinued?.

Shame about Ware & Hertford East s/boxes closing i use to like those two boxes.

Hi Micky

When I worked it, if a train was allowed to approach the station with the barriers raised, the signal outside the station (WA17) would be held at danger until the train was nearly at a stand at it (in the old rule book that was the means to advise the driver he was approaching the signal under Warning Arrangement, even under TCB.)

However, there have been many changes in Signalling Standards and 'Warner' routes such as these are becoming rare so it may be this facility was removed when control passed to Liverpool St. It may well now be that the crossing must be lowered to allow the train to arrive, then raised once it has come to a stand in the platform, just in case a SPAD occurs.

Perhaps someone familiar with Liverpool St IECC might comment.

On 19 June this year the level crossing barriers at Ware failed in the up position. The service between Ware and Hertford East was suspended and all trains terminated at Ware.

Obviously it is possible to admit a train to the single line at Ware with the crossing barriers up - otherwise I'd never have got to Waltham Cross that day!

I've still got my doubts about the safety of a movement like that though.

[StevieG]

Unless it has changed since I was signalman at Ware, the signalling allows a train to run into Ware station with the barriers raised, and turn round back to London without lowering the barriers. Even if the barriers were lowered, two minutes after the train came to a stand in the platform the barriers could be raised again.

" Interesting?. If a train was brought into the station with the road barriers raised would the driver receive a subsidary signal (like a Warning signal?) at Ware's first controlled signal at the south end of Ware station into the station platform or just a Yellow main aspect?.

If the driver mis-judged his stopping distance and went onto or over the crossing with the barriers raised i bet there would be some questions asked?. I bet since Ware s/box closed (circa 2002?) that facility has either been modified of discontinued?. .... "

Hi Micky
When I worked it, if a train was allowed to approach the station with the barriers raised, the signal outside the station (WA17) would be held at danger until the train was nearly at a stand at it (in the old rule book that was the means to advise the driver he was approaching the signal under Warning Arrangement, even under TCB.)

However, there have been many changes in Signalling Standards and 'Warner' routes such as these are becoming rare so it may be this facility was removed when control passed to Liverpool St. It may well now be that the crossing must be lowered to allow the train to arrive, then raised once it has come to a stand in the platform, just in case a SPAD occurs.

Perhaps someone familiar with Liverpool St IECC might comment.

On 19 June this year the level crossing barriers at Ware failed in the up position. The service between Ware and Hertford East was suspended and all trains terminated at Ware.

Obviously it is possible to admit a train to the single line at Ware with the crossing barriers up - otherwise I'd never have got to Waltham Cross that day!

I've still got my doubts about the safety of a movement like that though.

I don't know the actual situation/limitations applied there, but the Down direction permissible speed is still only 15mph from just before the London end double-to-single track points, to the London end of the platform (then 20 until back on the double track again to Hertford).
Approach permissible speeds can still have a bearing on signal overlap length and other distances allowable between signals and significant safety hazards beyond. If the critical signal here is still some little way back from the crossing (was the old one about 70 yards? - I forget), and I think drivers arriving for a station or signal stop would normally ignore the change from 15 to 20 as they entered the platform, so in this case, with such a low approach speed to the signal it may well still be permitted for trains to arrive with the barriers left up in normal working, particularly if it can clear under previously-mentioned 'Warner' route conditions (in times past also sometimes called 'Delayed yellow').
In any case the signal might these days have become TPWS-fitted.
I'd also be surprised if things are not setup in a way that, in the case of any overrunning train occupying the track circuit beyond the signal, the red 'wig-wag' road lights automatically light-up immediately.

If all the above is not the case, and the previous signal can only clear when the barriers are down, then I can only think that, on the occasion Mr Bunt describes, the signalman was advising Down train drivers of the barriers failure at the signal before the station, then 'talking' them past the signal at red.

[ ...ERM, We're now possibly rather too far from the topic of ""Ware" on 313's blinds" ! ]

[thesignalman]

Folks,

Level crossings do not class as an obstruction for the purposes of signalling, so there should be no requirement to apply any "slowing" techniques. Of course, exceptions probably exist in what are perceived to be "special circumstances".

John

[StevieG]

Folks,

Level crossings do not class as an obstruction for the purposes of signalling, so there should be no requirement to apply any "slowing" techniques. Of course, exceptions probably exist in what are perceived to be "special circumstances".

John

Agreed John : I had in mind that level crossings within the Clearing Point on Absolute Block-worked lines did not constitute an obstruction for the purposes of accepting trains from the box in rear, but decided not to mention it as some modern situations are not so simple.
I'd say it started with the requirement that new signals protecting worked crossings be normally at least 50 metres from the crossing, and in no case less than 25m.
Nowadays I know of one situation at least where such signals have had to end up at far less than the 25m; for which dispensation for permitting such, involved having to apply special conditions/controls affecting the crossing equipment according to the approach of trains, arising from acknowledging risk to crossing users if a train SPAD-ed, or made a too-fast approach to, a signal at red sited at so near a point.
But I don't know if 'warner'/delayed yellow controls form part of such arrangements anywhere.
Perhaps though, at Ware, the previous signal is approach-released from red to yellow, but more because of the severe speed reduction to 15mph needed to negotiate the double-to-single line points and entry to the station.

[Apologies for this getting so technical folks, and so far off-topic. This sort of detail might normally be found elsewhere, such as at http://forum.signalbox.org/viewforum.php?f=10 , so I won't continue it further here.]