strategic reserve

[talltim]

On the subject of Cold War trains, does anyone know any more about these coaches?

http://philtpics.fotopic.net/p3361759.html

Tim

[Bryan]

These coaches were released for scrap / preservation in the 80s
I believe that they had been formed in sets of, I think, 6 coaches comprising Offices, messing, generator and stores. I understand that to be the case anyway.
A number of these coaches found their way into preservation but all were heavily stripped of furnishings etc and needed a lot of work.
I think that each region had at least 1 set maybe more.
Cannot remember were they had been stored though.
LNERCA and other similar coach groups could possibly supply more info.

[redtoon1892]

The very first issue of Steam railway magazine ran a story on this about some guy had "seen" a stock of 8Fs in a cave somewhere in Wales, it was all very vague tho.
I personally think the story was a "granny" to give the first issue a boost,
Someone made the point that preserved locomotives were the stategic reserve as they could be commandered at any time in an emergency.
Its a bit like the Sherman tanks that were destined for Russia but the war ended before they were sent, allegedly they were dumped in the sea off Scotland somewhere.
A load of American "Big Jims" were lost on there way here when the ship was torpedoed.

[soupdragon]

I was certain id seen something on the SSR during my wanderings



http://www.willys-mb.co.uk/strategic-reserve.htm

[Flamingo]

The very first issue of Steam railway magazine ran a story on this about some guy had "seen" a stock of 8Fs in a cave somewhere in Wales, it was all very vague tho.
I personally think the story was a "granny" to give the first issue a boost,
Someone made the point that preserved locomotives were the stategic reserve as they could be commandered at any time in an emergency.
Its a bit like the Sherman tanks that were destined for Russia but the war ended before they were sent, allegedly they were dumped in the sea off Scotland somewhere.
A load of American "Big Jims" were lost on there way here when the ship was torpedoed.

Sorry, but there is no such story in the first issue of 'Steam Railway', which came out in June 1979 IIRC. I have the issue in question in front of me as I write this.

It is possible you may be thinking of the tirst issue of 'Steam World', April 1981. Although that too does not contains any such article about 8Fs stored in a cave somewhere in Wales, it does however give a vague mention of a 'strategic reserve' article 'published in November 1979' - most helpfully omitting to state which magazine it appeared in.

What Steam World No. 1 it does have however is an article about unidentified engines which someone claimed to have seen in sidings near Shrewsbury station on October 2 1975, for which no obvious explanation had been found. The author of this article, none other than the former editor of Steam Railway, seemed to be suggesting a possible link between the mysterious engines seen at Shrewsbury and the strategic reserve.

Like many others who were taking a serious interest in BR steam during its final years, I cannot recall any mention at the time of any official suggestion or intention to create a strategic steam reserve. From 1960 onwards the activities of BR's remaining steam locomotives were followed, studied and recorded in great detail. Very few parts of the then existing rail network, including industrial locations, were left unvisited during those final years. If ever any locos were being salted away for future use, you can rest assured that someone would have seen them and passed on the news to fellow enthusiasts. To the best of my knowledge no such information ever circulated at the time.

What has emerged subsequently may well, as you suggest, owe more than a little to inventive journalism. .

[richard]

Quite, and the whole 'reason' is bogus. It is easily possible to make a road vehicle EMP-proof (my old Land Rover was before I got my hands on it), so why not a diesel? Actually a diesel is easier because there are less sensitive electrical parts. And what about the signals/etc?
How would you support a coal railway without any of the coal infrastructure?

Richard

[redtoon1892]

No steam railway, It had Leander on the front I think, maybe No 2 there was a drawing of a line of locos and pic of the guy who mooted the story, curly hair and glasses. I may still have the issue somewhere but I had to get rid of several hundred of them when I downsized house, I may have kept the first issue tho, will try and sort it from the dozens of boxes in the garage yet to be unpacked

[Flamingo]

I don't have issue 2 of Steam Railway, but what you describe corresponds almost exactly to the feature which appeared in No. 1 of Steam World dated April 1981. The guy with curly hair and glasses was Stephen Burgess, and there was a line drawing showing engines such as 8Fs and WDs in the article.

In 1975 Stephen Burgess was a uni student at Aberystwyth. On October 2nd he was on his way there by train, starting from Birmingham. According to the article he fell asleep during the journey and didn't wake up when the train arrived at Shrewsbury station. By the time he did wake up the d.m.u. had been shunted into sidings where he saw ' 2 or 3 lines of steam locomotives....... large and in good condition, painted dull black..... with large painted white numbers on their tenders'.

When I was last at Shrewsbury about 2 years back there were some stabling sidings near the triangular junction just outside the station. To that extent Burgess' story is just about credible but in other respects his account poses more questions than it answers, as does the way in which all this was reported in the magazine.

I remember meeting the author of that article not long after it appeared and asking him whether he really believed the story. His reply (apart from recommending that I bought the next issue of the magazine which was going to carry a follow-up feature) was something to the effect that
'the Government admits it does have a strategic reserve of locomotives!'

When the follow-up came out it transpired that this statement was a thinly disguised reference to the small stock of diesel shunting locomotives which at that time were owned by the Ministry of Defence and held in store at various locations, one of which was the military establishment at Arncott near Bicester in Oxfordshire.

Quite a few of us had known about Arncott for years and had even visited it (I went there in 1966). We could have told the author that much without making it into something of a mystery trying to boost magazine sales.

As to the other more far fetched strategic reserve stories which have circulated, the less said the better. But like many other conspiracy theories this one cannot be killed off. Despite all logic of the kind which Richard has pointed out, it will run and run.

[redtoon1892]

Your right flamingo, my apolgies, it was as you say.

Hi, Thanks for your enquiry. Issue No. 1 of STEAM RAILWAY does indeed have 'Leander' on the cover. I've looked through it, but can find no reference to the strategic reserve. I was ploughing through subsequent issues, with no success, when the thought occurred that it might be in the first issue of STEAM WORLD ... and it is! It is a three page article by Stephen Burgess. Hope that helps ... and Good Luck if you decide to bid on Steam World, Steam Railway, or both!.

[Muzza]

It was Steam Railway Issue 3 (November/December 1979). The one with Union of South Africa on the cover.

The article starts on page 44. There is an illustration drawn by Andrew Mackintosh showing 8Fs, 9Fs and what looks like a J94 or two, holed up in a secret underground bunker.

[Flamingo]

1 think I have that issue somewhere.

These stories and 'sightings' go ond on. I'll say it again, there were no such rumours circulating at the time steam was disappearing from BR. They seem to have started about the same time as the newer monthly rail magazines.

Just coincidence of course.

[hq1hitchin]

Sorry to pour more cold water on this lovely dream - there never was a strategic reserve of steam locomotives in the UK, it's just that BR's accountancy methods when it came to the disposal of them left a lot to be desired and hence some were literally unaccounted for.

People have been chasing this holy grail since then, to no avail - a shame there wan't one though.....

[kitmaster]

Latest info:

Eye-witness account from LUL employee asked to carry out H&S supervision for two structural engineers carrying out condition survey of "disused rail tunnels adjacent to LUL running lines" admitted to sealed tunnels. Finds three 8Fs in each tunnel, rods off, bunkers boarded over. Engineers used these boards to inspect the tunnel roof. Inspection regime is said to be regular. Suitable location: Hampstead old Northern line tunnels at rear end of Finchley depot. Date: 2005

FoI request 2007 to PRO at Kew quoting exact doc nos. from an informant was turned down. Docs cover the falsification of disposal records and the creation of the SSR in 1967/8. Answer from PRO: They were not opened under the 30 year rule, will not be opened under the 50 year rule and after that a decision will be taken.

Author of book on SSR hit by a D-Notice before publication could take place (1999).

Same author warned not to keep digging for info on SSR at a UK resiliance Planning meeting.

[hq1hitchin]

I would think LUL are likely candidates for prosecution by allowing contractors to work at height using some timbers of unknown strength to stand upon ,that allegedly have been in a tunnel for about 40 years. I would love to meet the person who prepared the method statement and undertook the risk assessment for this activity. Even more, would love to meet the LUL manager who approved it! Come to think it, I expect the HMRI would as well

[hq1hitchin]

A few other questions from somebody, this time with LUL expertise:

1)There isn't an LT Finchley Depot (unless you count trams) - so where are we talking about?

2)Northern line tunnels are 12ft or less in diameter; 8Fs don't fit.

3)Why would any government keep the retention of a handful of fifty year old steam locomotives a secret?

If any such thing existed they'd have been sold off for scrap or preservation years ago. Can we see some photographic evidence, please? - The numbers of the locomotives would be most useful...