Finsbury Park no.4

[Mickey]

Just a question regarding Finsbury Park no.4 circa late 1960s and early 1970s and the Up fast line colour light home signal?.

If the Finsbury Park no.4 signalman had accepted a train on the Up fast line from Finsbury Park no.6 at the north end of the station but the block section between Finsbury Park no.4 & Holloway North Up and from the summer of 1970 after Holloway North Up was abolished and Finsbury Park no.4 was then working with Holloway South Up on the Up lines and if after accepting a train on the Up fast line from Finsbury Park no.6 the signalman in Finsbury Park no.4 'pulls off' his Up fast line colour light home signal that was located off the south end of the Up fast line platform beyond the Seven Sisters road bridge with the Finsbury Park no.4 Up fast line starting signal still standing at danger would this colour light signal immediately clear to a 'yellow aspect' or was it 'approach controlled' and would only clear to a 'yellow aspect' when a train was approaching it along the Up fast line after passing Finsbury Park no.6 and was possibly midway through the station before this Finsbury Park no.4 colour light home signal would clear to a yellow aspect?.

[thesignalman]

It is possible it would clear to yellow if the lever was operated, but trains should have been checked at it by the signalman, as it was still a semaphore signalling area in principle. The only circumstance when it could be cleared when the starter could not be would be when that starter was acting like an Intermediate Block Home and had its own overlap track circuit to prove the line was clear for 440 yards beyond it (just like block signalling acceptance).

John

[StevieG]

Unusually in my opinion, for track-circuited through platformed stations in the area Mickey, the Up fast TC'g at Fins. Pk. was split, a little more than halfway through I'd say.
IIRC, only the first TC was indicated in No.6 Box, and only the second was indicated in No.4.

I don't know in detail about the operation of No.4's UF Home (lever 2 IIRC) from R-->Y, but it would make sense if, after accepting an UF train, and while the Starter (lever 1) was to remain at Danger, the No.4 signalman could have Reversed lever 2 at any time but the Home remained at Danger, only stepping up to Y when the second TC in the platform became occupied, (or of course the Starter was cleared, allowing the Home to Clear straight to green).

[Mickey]

Thanks John & Stevie because for some reason I started thinking about that colour light signal the other evening that was worked by Finsbury Park no.4 and wondered if it would 'clear' straight to a yellow aspect with the Finsbury Park no.4 semaphore starting signal still standing at danger or would some sort of 'approach control' would have been fitted to that signal so as to have reduced the speed of an approaching train travelling along the Up fast line due to the Finsbury Park no.4 starting signal standing a danger and being located on a shallow right-hand curve?. From memory that colour light signal had a x3 aspect colour light head that could show either R/Y/G as far as I can remember. Also from memory that particular colour light signal worked by Finsbury Park no.4 and located beyond the south end of the Up fast line platform at Finsbury Park could be 'read through' by approaching trains travelling along the Up fast line before reaching and passing the Finsbury Park no.6 Up fast line colour light home signal located beyond the north end of Finsbury Park opposite GB sidings on the Up fast line as far back as after coming off the 'Harringay curve' that lead onto the long straight through Finsbury Park even in broad daylight as far as I can remember?.

An earlier photograph that I recall seeing that was taken on the Up fast line platform at Finsbury Park in GNR days shows a tall wooden signal post and featuring x2 co-acting home signal arms roughly where the aforementioned colour light signal was located in B.R. days.

[Mickey]

The way it usually worked.

Trains travelling along the Up fast line between Harringay through Finsbury Park station to Holloway North Up (box) and later Holloway South Up (box) from the summer of 1970 onwards that were possibly going to be detained at the Finsbury Park no.4 semaphore 'starting signal' opposite the site of East Goods on the shallow right-hand curve south of Finsbury Park (when the starting signal was standing in the 'on' position at danger) due to the signalman in Finsbury Park no.4 'waiting an acceptance' from either Holloway North Up or later on Holloway South Up boxes. The train travelling along the Up fast line would first receive both the Finsbury Park no.6 Up fast line outer & inner semaphore distant signals (both signals underneath Harringay passenger box stop signals) would be both standing at 'caution' followed by the Finsbury Park no.6 home Up fast line colour light home signal that would be showing a 'yellow' aspect and the Finsbury Park no.4 colour light home signal standing off the far south end of Finsbury Park station would probably be showing a 'RED' aspect as the train approached it because all the signalmen that worked Finsbury Park no.4 would further 'check' the speed of an approaching Up train on the Up fast line before allowing it to 'run up to' the Finsbury Park no.4 'starting signal' standing at danger if the block section between Finsbury Park no.4 & Holloway North Up or later Holloway South Up was still occupied by a previous train or it hadn't been accepted 'on the block' by either the Holloway North Up signalman or later on the Holloway South Up signalman and this was done by keeping the Finsbury Park no.4 'colour light home signal' at danger (showing a RED aspect) and only 'clearing' that signal to a 'yellow' aspect after receiving 'on line' (train entering section) from Finsbury Park no.6 when the approaching train on the Up fast line was coming through the station platform so as to allow the train 'draw up to' the Finsbury Park no.4 'starting signal' standing at danger at a reduced speed to wait acceptance from either Holloway North Up or from the summer of 1970 onwards Holloway South Up after Holloway North Up was closed in 1970.

In the last couple of years before Finsbury Park no.4 was abolished around late 1974(?) the Up fast & Up slow lines semaphore 'starting signals' were abolished and replaced by three individual x3 aspect colour light signals on a bracket post opposite the site of the old East Goods sidings, the third colour light was on the new but temporary aligned 'Up Canonbury line' between Finsbury Park no.4 and Finsbury Park no.1 and featured a 2nd position left-hand route indicator above the colour light signal head to route trains down the embankment towards Finsbury Park no.1 with the straight route leading onto the Up goods line towards Holloway South Up and also 1st position left-hand route indicator to route trains from the Up goods line to the Up coal line heading towards the top of the 'Holloway bank' which was controlled by Holloway South Up. Also from memory after visiting Finsbury Park no.4 during 1972 I noticed that these three colour light signals (and the two sets of 'motorised facing points' in the Up Canonbury line leading to Finsbury Park no.1 and leading from the Up goods line to the Up coal line) were all being worked by 'switches' on the far left-hand end of the block shelf in Finsbury Park no.4 and not off the previous individual starting signal levers.

[Mickey]

Amendment to the above post which I have added.

I finally got the above temporary track and signalling 'sorted out' that was worked by Finsbury Park no.4 after track and signalling alterations had taken place at the box during 1972/73 after checking my own 'hand drawn track layouts' between Finsbury Park & Holloway South Up circa March/April 1974 where the 'temporary' Up Canonbury line parted company via a set of 'motorised facing points' worked by Finsbury Park no.4 opposite the old East Goods sidings and headed down an embankment towards Finsbury Park no.1 and where the 'motorised points' continued on as the Up goods line (towards Holloway South Up) and immediately beyond these 1st set of 'motorised facing points' a 2nd set of 'motorised facing points' also worked by Finsbury Park no.4 lead from the Up goods line to the (old) Up coal line heading towards the top of the 'Holloway bank' (passing the x3 roads Hornsey Road sidings) and eventually onto Holloway South Up box.

[StevieG]

The way it usually worked.
" .... In the last couple of years before Finsbury Park no.4 was abolished around late 1974(?) the Up fast & Up slow lines semaphore 'starting signals' were abolished and replaced by three individual x3 aspect colour light signals on a bracket post opposite the site of the old East Goods sidings, the third colour light was on the new but temporary aligned 'Up Canonbury line' between Finsbury Park no.4 and Finsbury Park no.1 and featured a 2nd position left-hand route indicator above the colour light signal head to route trains down the embankment towards Finsbury Park no.1 with the straight route leading onto the Up goods line towards Holloway South Up and also 1st position left-hand route indicator to route trains from the Up goods line to the Up coal line heading towards the top of the 'Holloway bank' which was controlled by Holloway South Up. Also from memory after visiting Finsbury Park no.4 during 1972 I noticed that these three colour light signals (and the two sets of 'motorised facing points' in the Up Canonbury line leading to Finsbury Park no.1 and leading from the Up goods line to the Up coal line) were all being worked by 'switches' on the far left-hand end of the block shelf in Finsbury Park no.4 and not off the previous individual starting signal levers."

You sure about all three of those C/L signals being worked by switches on the Block Shelf Mickey ?
The Goods road signal with the positions 1 & 2 'feathers', being involved with the two new sets of motored points, I would expect to be switch-worked, fair enough.

But although all three were on the same structure, the other two were merely colour-light substitutions for the previous semaphores, and I'd have thought it much simpler, signal engineering-wise, to retain their operation by the same original levers (No.1 ; and ?10?), with their same electric lever locks for the 'Line Clear' releases and keeping the locking for the Distants' levers, though necessitating the fitting of circuit controllers, (unless the Starter levers were changed to be "For Interlocking Only", but that and controlling them instead from switches still seems to me like more work).

Incidentally, that structure (that the three signal heads were mounted on), remained way off to the left of the US & UF lines because of the Right-Hand curve and so, like their semaphore predecessors, those two lines' C/Ls still stood some distance from their lines, and were inherently harder to see/'read' at close quarters than the semaphores ; far from ideal for Drivers approaching/standing at them at Danger.
And so I wonder if there were complaints, because I believe I recall that the UF & US signal heads ended up being moved off that bracket to be at ground level to the left of their respective lines, leaving just the Up Goods signal up on the bracket.

[Mickey]

The way it usually worked.
" .... In the last couple of years before Finsbury Park no.4 was abolished around late 1974(?) the Up fast & Up slow lines semaphore 'starting signals' were abolished and replaced by three individual x3 aspect colour light signals on a bracket post opposite the site of the old East Goods sidings, the third colour light was on the new but temporary aligned 'Up Canonbury line' between Finsbury Park no.4 and Finsbury Park no.1 and featured a 2nd position left-hand route indicator above the colour light signal head to route trains down the embankment towards Finsbury Park no.1 with the straight route leading onto the Up goods line towards Holloway South Up and also 1st position left-hand route indicator to route trains from the Up goods line to the Up coal line heading towards the top of the 'Holloway bank' which was controlled by Holloway South Up. Also from memory after visiting Finsbury Park no.4 during 1972 I noticed that these three colour light signals (and the two sets of 'motorised facing points' in the Up Canonbury line leading to Finsbury Park no.1 and leading from the Up goods line to the Up coal line) were all being worked by 'switches' on the far left-hand end of the block shelf in Finsbury Park no.4 and not off the previous individual starting signal levers."

You sure about all three of those C/L signals being worked by switches on the Block Shelf Mickey ?
The Goods road signal with the positions 1 & 2 'feathers', being involved with the two new sets of motored points, I would expect to be switch-worked, fair enough.

But although all three were on the same structure, the other two were merely colour-light substitutions for the previous semaphores, and I'd have thought it much simpler, signal engineering-wise, to retain their operation by the same original levers (No.1 ; and ?10?), with their same electric lever locks for the 'Line Clear' releases and keeping the locking for the Distants' levers, though necessitating the fitting of circuit controllers, (unless the Starter levers were changed to be "For Interlocking Only", but that and controlling them instead from switches still seems to me like more work).

Incidentally, that structure (that the three signal heads were mounted on), remained way off to the left of the US & UF lines because of the Right-Hand curve and so, like their semaphore predecessors, those two lines' C/Ls still stood some distance from their lines, and were inherently harder to see/'read' at close quarters than the semaphores ; far from ideal for Drivers approaching/standing at them at Danger.
And so I wonder if there were complaints, because I believe I recall that the UF & US signal heads ended up being moved off that bracket to be at ground level to the left of their respective lines, leaving just the Up Goods signal up on the bracket.

To be honest Stevie with regards to me saying the 'new colour light signals' and motor points were ALL being worked 'on the switches' including the Up fast & Up slow lines starting signals (a line clear release being required to clear them both from Holloway South Up) I didn't pay that much attention to that piece of 'modern' equiptment so the Up fast & Up slow lines colour light starting signals may well have still been worked off the individual starting signal levers as you possibly think they still were because to be honest I was more interested in looking around the box and at the (Dutton) lever frame and block shelf and the box telegraph instruments rather than the new switches which as I posted previously were mounted (logically) on the far left-hand end of the block shelf and I noticed the signalman did operate the switches several times while I was in the box, anyway my visit took place during 1972 (52 years ago) and I didn't make any written notes.

Also with regards to 'new colour light starting signals' for the Up fast & Up slow lines in particular possibly being difficult to be seen by approaching trains yes I reckon you are right Stevie and as you said due to the signal heads being further to the left of the Up fast & Up slow lines in particular with the signals also being approached on a shallow right-hand curve as well also probably didn't help either?. To be honest I don't recall those signals being re-positioned I don't think I did unless I have since forgotten or they were re-positioned after September 1975 after I left the Kings Cross area?.

[Mickey]

You sure about all three of those C/L signals being worked by switches on the Block Shelf Mickey ?
The Goods road signal with the positions 1 & 2 'feathers', being involved with the two new sets of motored points, I would expect to be switch-worked, fair enough.

But although all three were on the same structure, the other two were merely colour-light substitutions for the previous semaphores, and I'd have thought it much simpler, signal engineering-wise, to retain their operation by the same original levers (No.1 ; and ?10?), with their same electric lever locks for the 'Line Clear' releases and keeping the locking for the Distants' levers, though necessitating the fitting of circuit controllers, (unless the Starter levers were changed to be "For Interlocking Only", but that and controlling them instead from switches still seems to me like more work).

Firstly Stevie I don't know for sure if the Finsbury Park no.4 'colour light starting signals' were actually being worked off 'signal switches' because I just 'assumed' that they were because I noticed the signalman operating some switches on the block shelf that from memory showed the track layout on that part of the line and assumed he was working ALL 3-colour light signals by the switches?. Maybe the 'old starting signal levers' were still being used to work the new colour light starting signals?.

Anyway you are correct Stevie regarding those two starting signal levers because even after both the Up fast & Up slow lines 'semaphore starting signals' had been abolished and replaced by two separate colour light signals (that may or may not have been worked off two individual 'signal switches' on the block shelf by the signalman in Finsbury Park no.4?) both the former Up fast & Up slow lines starting signal levers would still have to be 'worked' as you pointed out for 'locking purposes' because they would 'free' both the Finsbury Park no.4 distant signal levers for the Up fast & Up slow lines colour light distant signals on the approach to Finsbury Park no.6 which would also allow the Finsbury Park no.6 signalman to 'clear' his own Up fast line inner & outer semaphore distant signals in particular (both these two distant signals were beneath Harringay stop signals) back at Harringay. As for the Finsbury Park no.4 Up slow line colour light distant signal on the approach to Finsbury Park no.6 (situated opposite the Finsbury Park no.4 colour light distant signal on the Up fast line) that signal was ALWAYS showing a 'yellow' aspect for approaching 'local stopping passenger trains' that were running along the Up slow line when approaching Finsbury Park so consequently the Finsbury Park no.6 Up slow line semaphore distant signal beneath the Harringay Up slow line starting signal was ALWAYS standing in the 'on' position (caution) as well, anyway a number of 'stopping trains' that ran along the Up slow line to Finsbury Park were often 'turned out' along the Up fast line at Finsbury Park no.4 towards Kings Cross. Anyway Stevie with your substantial signalling knowledge I assume that you are probably correct in your assumption that the Up fast & Up slow lines starting signals after being converted to 'colour lights' were probably still worked off the individual levers.

Also with regards to the Finsbury Park no.4 'directing signals' directly outside the box that read from right to left-

Up fast line
Up slow line
Up goods line (fixed distant signal beneath)
Up coal line (fixed distant signal beneath)

I assume I am correct in assuming that 'sequential locking' would have been applicable to the interlocking in the lever frame on those 'directing signals' so as the appropriate 'directing signal' for a particular route would first be 'cleared' before either the Up slow line platform starting signal or the Up goods line signal (through platform no.1) would be 'cleared' because that was how the signals were always worked at Finsbury Park no.4 from my observations.

[StevieG]

" .... Also with regards to the Finsbury Park no.4 'directing signals' directly outside the box that read from right to left-

Up fast line
Up slow line
Up goods line (fixed distant signal beneath)
Up coal line (fixed distant signal beneath)

I assume I am correct in assuming that 'sequential locking' would have been applicable to the interlocking in the lever frame on those 'directing signals' so as the appropriate 'directing signal' for a particular route would first be 'cleared' before either the Up slow line platform starting signal or the Up goods line signal (through platform no.1) would be 'cleared' because that was how the signals were always worked at Finsbury Park no.4 from my observations."

You're right about how the Up Slow and Up Goods (formerly the "Up Branch") platform Starters and the Up Slow "Directing Signals" worked. And in fact the Up Canonbury main signal close to the box also had to be worked in the same way (but the other two miniature arms with it, to the Eastern Arrival Nos.1 & 2 roads, did not and could be left at Danger until a train was close to them) : I suspect that that was because when East Goods Yard box was still operational, those two lines were the Permissively-worked Up East Goods Lines Nos.1 & 2, and those two signals then had full size arms.
So them not needing to be cleared before either platform Starter was, was probably so that, in those days, if a signalman needed to admit a train to either line when it was already occupied, he needed to be able to keep them at Danger until the train was 'at or almost at a stand' before clearing the appropriate signal, for the Driver to understand that the Section was not clear, and the locking probably wasn't changed when Miniature arms replaced the full-size ones.

But all the above requirements, although imposing operation by certain sequences, were not what is officially termed "Sequential Locking" : -
- That is when the signalman can only clear stop signals along a line or route in the order that trains approach them ; e.g. If sequential locking existed on FP No.4's Up Fast Home and Starter (and I don't recall if it did), then the lever badge for the Home (lever 2), would've stated needing "(1 Normal)"; (i.e., as at WGC, 34 needed 31 & 33 Normal and 33 needed 32 Normal).

[Mickey]

But all the above requirements, although imposing operation by certain sequences, were not what is officially termed "Sequential Locking" : -
- That is when the signalman can only clear stop signals along a line or route in the order that trains approach them ; e.g. If sequential locking existed on FP No.4's Up Fast Home and Starter (and I don't recall if it did), then the lever badge for the Home (lever 2), would've stated needing "(1 Normal)"; (i.e., as at WGC, 34 needed 31 & 33 Normal and 33 needed 32 Normal).

An interesting post Stevie thanks. I first recall reading of 'Sequential locking' on certain levers way back in 1968 in my own hardback copy of British Railways Signalling Vol.2 which you would obviously know about Stevie and that was a great little book for anyone interested in British Railways Signalling back in the 1960s.

I recall travelling on the original Up Canonbury line from Finsbury Park station this was around 1970/71 on a B.R. 'Mystery Tour' special one Sunday morning with the train being worked by a blue livered Brush type 2 (class 31) hauling a rake of blue 'block enders' (inner suburban slam door caches) from Welwyn Garden City to Clacton-on-Sea in Essex anyway after we passed through Finsbury Park station along the Up slow line at a slow speed we was then routed across onto the Up Canonbury line at Finsbury Park no.4 passing the back of the box after which the train took a wide sweep of the southern part of the East Goods sidings which was interesting because I had never travelled that route before (or subsequently afterwards to Broad Street either) which also had the Finsbury Park no.4 Up Canonbury line semaphore 'starter' on a medium size straight metal tubular post with the Finsbury Park no.1 distant signal beneath it plus I had a close up view of Finsbury Park no.1 which I had never seen before.

The following accident can be found in the Railway Archive website.

By the way with regards to Finsbury Park no.4 an interesting accident occurred at the box back in the 1880s from memory in 'dense fog' at Finsbury Park station in the morning peak when a signalman in Finsbury Park no.4 mistakenly gave 'train out of section' to Finsbury Park no.6 (at the north end of Finsbury Park station) and accepted another train on the Up slow line which ran into the already 'occupied' Up slow line platform. Obviously there wasn't any 'track circuiting' provided at that date which would have avoided the accident happening. An interesting aside in the report is that the local residents in the houses around the Finsbury Park station area had complained of 'excessive whistling' by trains at the station so the GNR had instructed drivers to refrain from sounding the locos whistle which if the train in the Up slow line platform would have whistled it may have attracted the signalman's attention in Finsbury Park no.4 and he would have been reminded that a train was still standing in the Up slow line platform and he wouldn't have accepted another train on the Up slow line from Finsbury Park no.6.