Locomotives from Liverpool Lime Street

[Kestrel]

In 1961, my parents and I began going to St Ives in Cornwall for our summer holidays. In those days we had the factory fortnight which, for the youngsters amongst us, would have the August Bank Holiday weekend as the middle weekend with the Bank Holiday Monday being the first Monday in August.

I remember the following as if it was yesterday. After loading our cases into our reserved compartment, the journey would be preceded by my father taking me along the platform at Liverpool Lime Street to see the driver and the locomotive. It seemed to be massive and would have been something like a 'Princess'.

The journey started at 11:50pm on the Friday night, stopping at Bristol Temple Meads at 6:30am Saturday morning where the loco was changed for a 'copper top', maybe a 'Hall' (in later years it was a 'Western'), Newton Abbott (for Torquay) at about 10:00am, before changing trains at St Erth at 2:30pm. For the first few years, the second train was led by a GWR Pannier Tank before being replaced by a DMU.

The train wound its way along the coast before finally arriving at St Ives at about 3:30pm. That's more than 15½ hours on the train but it was worth it. The return journey always seemed quicker and we had to change at Crewe as the train went onto Manchester. They were the days when you could lean out of the door windows. I did that looking for the posts so my Dad could work out what speed we were doing.

I remember at one point, the train would travel through a curve and you could lean out the window and count the coaches. I can't remember how many there were, but it was nearly twenty.

There was a loop in St Ives station that enabled the Panniers to change ends but now there is a single track and where the station building was is now a car park and the platforms have been moved up to where there was an engine shed.

Would anyone on the forum have any idea if there is a way of finding out which locos pulled the trains from Lime Street to Penzance at that time, 1961-1966. Would they have been recorded?

I tried ringing Lime Street and was answered by a young wench who asked if the trains were Virgin.

[Bill Bedford]

I suspect the answer is 'lots'. There would have been engine changes at Pontypool Road and Plymouth and possibly at other places.

[markindurham]

Almost certainly there would have been a locomotive change (and reversal) at Birmingham New Street.

[Kestrel]

Not on our journey. It stopped at Runcorn and Crewe after leaving Liverpool and then went straight to Bristol Temple Meads via Shrewsbury.

[markindurham]

Not on our journey. It stopped at Runcorn and Crewe after leaving Liverpool and then went straight to Bristol Temple Meads via Shrewsbury.

Very interesting. Can you recall the route Shrewsbury-Bristol? I'm intrigued by this one, & I suspect I'm not alone

[Bill Bedford]

They used the North and West line from Crewe to Maindau Junction via Shrewsbury, Worcester, Hereford and Pontypool Road. Then on to the GW main line to Bristol via the Severn Tunnel. My understanding is that just about all passenger trains on this line changed engines at Pontypool Road.

[John Palmer]

Ah! now we're dealing with train workings in my part of the world!

A small correction to Bill's last post: the route would be via Maindee Jc North and Maindee Jc East (Newport) to Severn Tunnel, thence Patchway, Filton, Dr Days Bridge into Temple Meads for the locomotive change before going forward over the Bristol & Exeter.

I can't provide details for the OP's 1961 reference date, but more information is available for (Friday/)Saturday 27 July 1957 in Thomas and Smith's 'Summer Saturdays in the West'. This gives reporting no. 202 for the the 11.35 p.m. ex Lime Street to Penzance. From Bristol southbound haulage is by 1002 'County of Berks'. The train is a right time departure from Exeter St Davids, but 30 down at Newton Abbott, reflecting the pressure on line occupation between these points.

I doubt there was an engine change at Plymouth, as there _was_ a recorded addition at Newton Abbott of 6856 Stowe Grange to pilot the the train over Rattery and (more importantly) Dainton Banks. Conceivably the Grange came off at North Road, but piloting might still have been preferred for the traverse of the sinuous sawtooth of the Cornwall Railway.

Load is given as 15 vehicles to Newton Abbott, with one less going forward from there. Presumably a portion was detached at NA for Torquay/Paignton.

HTH.

[markindurham]

Thanks, Bill & John.

Mark

[Kestrel]

Thanks for all who have replied. I do remember some platforms in Devon/Cornwall were too short for the whole train and so it had to stop in two goes, first for the passengers at the front half to alight and then for those in the back half. I remember as a lad it was quite a procedure. I also remember at some stage down there that the train was double headed. I'm going back 50 years.

[kudu]

I doubt there was an engine change at Plymouth, as there _was_ a recorded addition at Newton Abbott of 6856 Stowe Grange to pilot the the train over Rattery and (more importantly) Dainton Banks. Conceivably the Grange came off at North Road, but piloting might still have been preferred for the traverse of the sinuous sawtooth of the Cornwall Railway.

This is fascinating stuff. Where was the LMS/GW exchange? Presumably Shrewsbury if the route went that way. In which case LMS Pacifics were unlikely on this train?

My GW recollections are in the London area, so I stand to be corrected here, but I understood all but the lightest main line trains would be piloted over the South Devon banks, locos being attached in the down direction at Newton Abbott station and detached in the up at Aller Junction (unless, presumably, there was a station call). On the other hand piloting in Cornwall was rarer, though not unknown, judging from photos. (A double-header into Penzance would mean half the passengers would alight at Marazion - slight exaggeration here.) Whether this means the train engine would be changed at North Road too I don't know (unless it was a King).

Kudu