NLL recollections

[Mickey]

A question regarding Skinner Street Junction s/box on the approach to Broad street the London terminus for the North London Railway?.

An occasional pondered question in my mind was how did the unconventional slightly sloping long roof come about to this quite large signal box?. Was it originally designed with a 'sloping roof' or did it originally have a more conventional hip roof like the other North London Railway boxes and it was damaged and re-built after possibly sustaining 'bomb damage' during the London blitz of 1940-41?. Unfortunately no photographs of Skinner Street Junction box appear on the web although no doubt a few photographs probably exist of the box somewhere?.

A question probably only one or two individuals can maybe answer?.

Also regarding both Skinner Street Junction and another box named New Inn Yard the next box a few hundred yards beyond Skinner Street Junction both boxes B.R. track diagrams found their way to Collectors Corner opposite Euston station back in 1970 because I remember seeing them both in side the old first floor warehouse building leaning up against the brick wall and selling for a few pounds each. Both track diagrams were of B.R.(LMR) pattern on a white background with the track layout drawn in the usual 'straight lines' with red track circuits and of course a non glass front with a black plastic material edging the diagrams themselves. I wonder where they both went 50 years on?.

[Mickey]

Below Broad Street No.2 box as it was in 1977 seven years after my visit-
http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/br ... reet85.jpg

I visited Broad Street station one Saturday afternoon back in May 1970 and the station terminus it's self was as quiet as a grave with no one around at all anyway I walked along the platform to the end where No.2 box was standing and when I reached the bottom of the staircase up into the box a face appeared at the doorway window then the door opened and a west Indian bloke standing in the open doorway called down to me "Do you want to come up?." I walked up the stairs and into the box and the first thing that I notice was the smell of disinfectant and the second thing that I noticed was the highly polished lino floor!. The signalman didn't say much in conversation but let me stay with him in the box for about an hour and even let me 'pull off' the Down semaphore starting signal towards Dalston for a departing Broad Street to Richmond 501 EMU that was departing the station terminus which I think from memory was no.9 lever the Down starting signal?. Anyway I eventually thanked the signalman and left the box and disappeared out of the deserted station and went home.

[Mickey]

Below Dalston Junction station & signal box in 1974 looking southwards towards Broad Street-
http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/d/da ... ex48.shtml

Below Dalston Junction station & signal box in 1977 looking southwards towards Broad Street-
http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/d/da ... ex50.shtml

A month after my box visit to Broad Street No.2 on another Saturday afternoon in June 1970 I travelled to Dalston Junction station the first station out from Broad Street station and somehow got talking to a Irish railman who worked at the station who asked me if I wanted to visit the signal box?. Obviously I wanted to so he lead me along the platform and up the short staircase and into the box where a signalman possibly in his 50s was on duty and surprisingly he had a trainee signalman with him who I remember was at that time going through the signalling school because he kept referring to a small note book and asking the signalman various question about signalling?. Anyway the signalman didn't seem to bothered about me being in the box and I stayed for about 40-50 minutes before leaving. The box interior was a bit dingy and had a longish (60) lever North London Railway stirrup lever frame also their was a Intermediate block section on the Up no.2 line heading towards Dunloe Street box an intermediate signal box between Dalston Junction & Broad Street No.2 box I recall because it was obviously shown on the box track diagram and also I remember if you looked south towards Dunloe Street through the 'bridge ole' and up the hill (rising gradient) you could just about see a yellow aspect of the intermediate colour light distant signal and also see it change to a green aspect when the signalman pulled the IBH (intermediate block home) signal lever over in the lever frame after offering on a 3-1-2 bell (Electric ordinary passenger train) to Broad Street No.2 box and getting a 'line clear' release on the block instrument.

[StevieG]

Mickey, you might like to know (if you don't already) that the North London Railway Historical Society have just published Vol. 2 of their intended "History of the North London Railway" series, by experts Jim E. Connor (formerly of Connor & Butler publications - Closed Stations etc.) and David L Hanson.
[ Vol.1, "London's North Western Electrics", by different authoritative authors, was published about five years ago.]

The new 172-page Vol. 2, like Vol.1, is a well-produced softcover book, well illustrated, on "Stations of the City Extension" (i.e. Broad Street, Shoreditch, Haggerston, and Dalston Junction), through to at least the 1960s & '70s: (some of the content mentions signalling, and quite a few photos also include signals - but not box interiors though).
Cover price is £25.00 but that may not be surprising given the relatively local nature of such a short railway compared to the major companies, and the relatively small area covered.

Vol.3 (no expected availability date yet) is expected to be on NLR signalling.

( Mickey,
Sorry to ask, but I have to be curious : Why do you put these non-LNER posts of yours in the ("non-railway") "General Chat" Forum, when the stated purpose of the "Railway Chat" Forum seems to be intended for just such posts ? )

[Mickey]

Thanks for the information Stevie. Yeah I have a bit of an interest in the North London Railway or line from the time that I first visited Broad Street No.2 box back in 1970 as related in my post above and also from working on the NLL from 1980 onwards. I have previously seen a small number of publications in the Ian Alan shop at Waterloo regarding the NLR although that hardback book about the NLR that you maybe familiar with that has many large full page b&w photographs from the 1890s & 1900s and has a coloured drawing or painting of Dalston Junction station on the front cover and was around maybe 20-25 years ago appears to have disappeared these days as I was looking for it several months ago.

Just for the record I was a regular signalman at Victoria Park between 1980-81 then a regular signalman at Western Junction during 1987 then a regular signalman at Camden Road between 1992-2004 also I was a relief signalman between 1987-1990 and covered Camden Road, Gospel Oak (panel box) Willesden High Level, Acton Wells (lever frame & panel) & Kew East as well as four other boxes that weren't strictly North London line boxes such as a regular position at Junction Road Junction between 1981-85 & Upper Holloway (panel box) at various times from it's opening in 1985 through to the present day. Also when I was on the relief between 1987-1990 I covered Willesden Low Level on the Euston-Watford DC lines, Acton Canal Wharf & Neasden (Midland) Junction.

I don't like displacing the other posts by my posts and seeing that the non-railway page is hardly ever used by anyone I thought I would post on it and not displace other people's topics that they have posted. James b usually posts his old b&w railway photographs on this page as well.

[Mickey]

Meanwhile back at Broad Street in the spring of 1970...

Apart from the still working Broad Street No.2 three other signal boxes were still standing although all three were redundant but all fairly nearby in the shape of Broad Street No.1, Skinner Street Junction and just in view on the curve around to Shoreditch was New Inn Yard. Out of the three redundant boxes from memory Skinner Street Junction was a fairly large box that had a slightly sloping roof and all three boxes still looked intact and according to records apparently hadn't been closed that long in late 1969. On reflection a bit of closer inspection of all three boxes wouldn't have gone amiss as Broad Street station back in 1970 was a fairly empty place mostly devoid of people for most parts of the day and probably dead between 11:00pm-6:00am with nobody around at all except the signalman in Broad Street No.2 box. As previously posted on this thread both the Skinner Street Junction & New Inn Yard track diagrams found there way to Collectors Corner opposite Euston station in 1970 for sale to the general public.

[StevieG]

Yes, aware of a lot of the factual info Mickey (but not all your work experience), as I joined BR (S&T) the day after the weekend of 01st/02nd Nov. '69 when BS Plats. 1-4, I think also the Down No.1 from BS to Dalston Jn., and the whole of BS Goods Yard and connections to/from, were officially taken out of use, and BS No.1 box abolished, and was soon sent there to help with stripping the box out.
Not too many weeks/months after (haven't got a date handy at the moment), also a little with abolition of Skinner St. and New Inn Yard, leaving BS2 working with Dunloe Street.

[Mickey]

As you are aware Stevie I was a telegraph lad at Welwyn Garden City box in it's latter days between 1972-74 and then after that position was abolished I transferred onto was on the loco at Kings Cross as a secondman for 18 months before leaving the railway altogether for around three years but re-joined B.R. in early 1979 and spent about 8-9 months at Stratford loco in East London again as a secondman before 'going back in the box' at Victoria Park at Hackney at the beginning of 1980. As for yourself Stevie I had previously read on here several years ago that you was at Broad Street in late 1969 so you would have knowledge of Broad Street and that area from that time.

Below Broad Street terminus in the early 1970s with a class 501 EMU arriving up platform no.6 from Richmond. Broad Street No.2 box is to the extreme left of this scene and partly hidden by the modern style British Rail name board. Platforms 1-4 were originally controlled by Broad Street No.1 box and platforms 5-8 were controlled by Broad Street No.2 box so when this photograph was taken platforms 1-4 were out-of-use and redundant and quite possibly lifted.
http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/br ... x112.shtml

Below looking towards the 'buffer stops end' of the terminus in June 1974. The few times that I visited the terminus around 1970 it was very quiet during the early afternoons to the point of almost being deserted with no one to be seen around anywhere?.
http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/br ... x113.shtml

Below a high panoramic view looking down at Broad Street and it's approaches in this 1975 shot. The scene shows a x4 car Cravens DMU on either a departing Broad Street-Welwyn Garden City or Hertford North peak hour evening service and to give an idea of the short distances between the signal boxes the rear of the Cravens unit would have already just passed Broad Street No.1 while the front of the unit would just about to be passing Skinner Street Junction box with New Inn Yard box just at the top of the S curve as well with the railway being flanked by empty tracks of waste land where sidings once were.
http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/br ... ex92.shtml

Below a snowy day in December 1981 with a class 501 EMU standing in platform no.7 after bringing in a Richmond-Broad Street service. I
presume that a train crews 'signing on point' and mess room was located at the terminus?.
http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/br ... x121.shtml

[StevieG]

I think Skinner Street had been where, in that aerial shot, you can see a length of newer brickwork in the east side retaining wall, not far ahead of the DMU Mickey.

[Mickey]

It was definitely only a short distance between Broad Street No.1 & Skinner Street Junction boxes Stevie and in fact it must have ranked as one of the shortest block sections between two signal boxes in the country measured only in yards?. I only saw those three boxes including New Inn Yard after they had recently closed in late 1969 from a passing train as they were all still standing redundant in May/June of 1970. So when you was in the S&T at Broad Street Stevie in late 1969 you visited Broad Street No.1 very interesting did it have the same lever frame as Broad Street No.2 or was it a 'stirrup lever' frame?. Also you visited both Skinner Street & New Inn Yard boxes as well again very interesting I presume they both had stirrup lever frames. By 1970 Dunloe street was just a intermediate box between Broad Street No.2 & Dalston Junction working the no.2 lines (the DC electrified lines) only as the former no.1 lines or 'steam lines' as they were also known as by then had possibly been lifted in parts between Dalston Junction and Broad Street I think?.

A box on the NLL that I did visit after it had officially closed was York Road Junction between Highbury & Maiden Lane near Camden Road although I can't remember the date when I did visit it but I think it may have been in 1973?.

[Mickey]

Victoria Park's Up Poplar line distant signal (note not a full size arm) and positioned at the site of the old Homerton station on the borders between north & east London in Hackney and when it was 'cleared' it indicated to the train crew that the route was set towards Lea Junction in the Stratford 'C' panel box area with both the associated Victoria Park semaphore home signal and colour light starting signal both being off!. There is a good chance that I actually pulled that distant signal 'off' in the picture because it is dated May 1980 when I was a resident signalman at Victoria Park box and the other bloke at the box at that time didn't bother pulling that distant signal off and left it at 'caution' for all approaching trains maybe because he didn't have a lot of strength to pull it off being a rather smallish and thin kind of fella?. Myself and the other resident signalman at the box at that time we both worked 12hrs shifts week in and week out with myself working two weeks of 12hrs 'days' while my mate the other resident signalman worked two weeks of 12hrs 'nights' then we swapped around every third week and I would then work a week of 12hrs 'nights' and he would work a week of 12hrs 'day's then we would go back to myself working two weeks of 12hrs 'days' and he would work two weeks of 12hrs 'nights' because he liked it that way and I didn't mind to be honest.

Victoria Park's Up Poplar line distant signal at the site of Homerton station- http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/h/ho ... 1980)5.jpg

Victoria Park box in the late 1960s. The distant signal seen below the stop signal was also worked by Victoria Park box and was a 'Intermediate block distant signal' for the IB section that commenced from that stop signal and went as far as the IBH (Intermediate Block Home signal) positioned about 300-350 yards away from the box on a long curve heading west towards the North London line at Western Junction (Dalston) and was mounted on a tall straight metal tubular signal post standing opposite the 'top end' of the old Hackney Wick goods yard. The 'miniature' signal arm just visible standing beside the Up home signal on the Up line signals seen in the distance was later on after some track rationalisation of the junction (the diamond crossing was abolished and a single lead connection was laid in) was replaced by a 'ground disc signal' at ground level standing beside the Up home signal post which read from the Up line to the Poplar branch- http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/v/vi ... dex9.shtml

Victoria Park box in May 1979 about seven months before I went to the box as a resident signalman at the start of 1980 and remained at the box until the autumn of 1981- http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/v/vi ... ex13.shtml

After closure of the box in late 1984 the box was then used by the local P.Way gang for some years as a 'lobby' until the top wooden half of the box was destroyed by fire probably arson.

[Mickey]

Below Victoria Park box in 1968 looking in a south westerly direction across East London also note the B.R. London Midland Region maroon coloured enamel name board on the box.

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/v/vi ... park20.jpg

The lines in the foreground going to the left of the picture head towards Lea Junction which either took you left via Temple Mills or straight on towards Channelsea Junction and continuing straight on towards Stratford station and the GE main line or left at Channelsea Junction towards Stratford low level station terminating eventually at North Woolwich station with the lines going to the right of the picture heading towards Old Ford, Bow, Devon's road and Poplar docks. By the 1970s the double-track line towards Poplar docks had been reduced to a single line only with the diamond crossing at Victoria Park being removed and a new single line connection being installed to gain access to and from the Poplar lines with the left-hand line in the picture becoming a run/round line only between Victoria Park box and the Old Ford ground frame which gave access to the single line proper towards Poplar docks.

An interesting signalling feature of this box was a subsidiary W warning signal that was mounted well below the Down home signal which in turn was mounted towards the top of a tall straight lattice signal post that is not featured in the above picture the job of which was when the warning signal was cleared it warned the approaching train driver that the section up to the stop signal at the junction shown in the picture was clear but the junction immediately beyond the signal was blocked so the normal 440 yards 'clearing point' beyond a stop signal on Absolute block was fouled by another train crossing the junction immediately ahead of the approaching train coming from the Stratford direction so a driver should be more careful to draw up to and stop at the stop signal as their was no margin of error if he SPAD the signal protecting the junction. This warning signal was abolished possibly in early 1979 when some track and signalling rationalisation work took place at the box.

The box closed towards the end of 1984 and for a time was used by the local Hackney Wick P.Way gang until the top wooden half of the box was destroyed by fire probably arson.

[Mickey]

Below Western Junction box on the cross London North London line in 1987 the year that I was at the box first as a resident signalman between February & July and then covering the box as a relief signalman from July until the end of 1987 after which the box was transferred to the Anglia region formerly the Eastern region. From late 1984 after Victoria Park box was closed Western Junction box worked TCB (Track Circuit Block) to and from Stratford 'C' panel and also TCB with Hackney Downs box via the then re-opened 'Graham road curve' to and from Liverpool Street.

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/d/da ... 987)11.jpg
At Western Junction with the then newly erected OHL equipment freshly installed in 1987. The former route to and from the North London Railway terminus at Broad Street was to the right of the box while the route to and from Stratford and the GE main line is to the left of the box and also just about seen beyond the 'bridge ole' is the then 'new' Dalston Kingsland station. Also note the mechanical points rodding running along the cess to the left of the picture which confirms the picture was taken before the re-signalling of both Western Junction and Camden Road boxes in September of 1987.

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/d/da ... tion43.jpg
At Western Junction in 1987 showing the former disused North London line route to and from the North London Railway terminus at Broad Street.

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/d/da ... tion41.jpg
At Western Junction in 1987 and looking east with Western Junction box being seen in the distance and showing a departing North Woolwich to Richmond service formed by former southern region x2 car EMUs that worked the NLL services for a few years during the late 1980s after the former 501 class EMUs were withdrawn and before the introduction of the 313 class EMUs took over the workings during the 1990s & 2000s. The former North London line route to and from Broad Street is on the right of the picture with the last train running over the route in July of the previous year in 1986.

[Mickey]

Method of signalling between Western Junction & Camden Road over the Up & Down no.2 lines was Absolute Block working pre-re-signalling by route setting panels in both boxes in 1987.

In 1987 during the time that I was at Western Junction box Absolute Block working was still in force over the Up & Down no.2 lines between Western Junction and Camden Road boxes worked on standard B.R. block instruments in both boxes with the no.1 lines between Canonbury Junction to & from Camden Road being closed to all traffic pending track rationalisation between both locations and single lining of that length of railway from Canonbury Junction through Highbury to a new junction at Barnsbury where the no.1 lines would separate into Up & Down lines again.

Over the no.2 lines between both Western Junction & Camden Road both the Up & Down lines were fully track circuited and a IB section (Intermediate Block Section) existed on the Down no.2 line from the start of the no.2 lines at Dalston to the IBH (Intermediate Block Home) signal located about 100-150 yards beyond Canonbury station heading towards Highbury likewise on the Up no.2 line a IB section existed between Camden Road station and a IBH signal on the eastern end of Caledonian Road & Barnsbury station.

In Western Junction box a signalman could accept a train from Camden Road over the Up no.2 line provided all the track circuits were showing clear on the box track diagram from and ahead of the IBH signal at Caledonian Road station through Highbury station as far as the end of the overlap to the Up no.2 line colour light home signal (or first controlled signal) that was displaying a red aspect just east of Canonbury Junction even if any previous train travelling over the Up no.2 line was either still standing in or just leaving Canonbury station or maybe was approaching Western Junction but hadn't yet passed the box the signalman in Western Junction box could still give 'train out of section' back to Camden Road and if offered on another train by the Camden Road signalman he could accept it providing all the track circuits again were showing 'clear' from and ahead of the Caledonian Road IBH signal as far as the end of the overlap to the Up no.2 line colour light home signal just east of Canonbury Junction which would be showing a red aspect because of the track circuits ahead of that signal being occupied by the first train keeping that signal at red. So because of it being fully track circuited over the Up no.2 line back to Caledonian Road and with a IB section between Camden Road and Caledonian Road station and being able to 'give out' back to Camden Road with a train still travelling between Canonbury station and Western Junction the 'line capacity' was increased between both boxes. A similar signalling set up also existed on the Down no.2 line between Western Junction & Camden Road as well whereby not only was there a IB section on the Down no.2 line between the start of the junction leading onto the Down no.2 line as far as the IBH signal located about 100-150 yards beyond Canonbury station but the Camden Road signalman could also give 'train out of section' and accept another train from Western Junction over the Down no.2 line before any first train had passed his box providing all the track circuits in the Down no.2 line from the Canonbury IBH signal beyond Canonbury station and as far as and up to the overlap on the Down no.2 line colour light home signal (or first controlled signal) at the western end of Caledonian Road were all showing 'clear' on the Camden Road track diagram and the Caledonian Road colour light home signal on the west end of Caledonian Road station was displaying a red aspect.

[Mickey]

When I was a resident signalman at Western Junction box between February and July 1987 the no.1 lines between Canonbury Junction through Highbury and Caledonian road stations were out-of-use pending track rationalisation and the single lining of the no.1s from a new junction called 'Barnsbury Junction' just west of Caledonian road station on the no.1 lines through Caledonian road and Highbury stations to Canonbury Junction but that didn't happen until the commencement of the re-signalling of the NLL between Dalston Western Junction and Camden Road later in 1987. The facing points in the westbound no.1 lines at Canonbury Junction that took the right-hand curve around towards Finsbury Park were at that time still double track through Canonbury tunnel and beyond and were worked off a short handled half blue/half black 'motor points' lever that was left in the 'reverse' position in the lever frame with a 'lever collar' left on the lever all the time although the corresponding trailing points at Canonbury Junction were 'spring worked' and were pushed over by the train wheels in whatever direction the next train came from either the Camden Road or Finsbury Park direction although by the time that I was at the box those 'spring worked points' were always left reversed coming from the Finsbury Park direction as the Camden road direction along the no.1 lines was out-of-use during my time at the box.

At the 'Stratford end' of the box a new junction was laid in and named 'Navarino road Junction' and took a bi-directional single line around a curve called 'the Graham road curve' towards Bethnal Green and Liverpool Street with the 'GE end' of the curve being controlled by Hackney Down panel box. The Navarino road Junction end of the Graham road curve was controlled by Western Junction box and worked off the lever frame via two sets of short handled half blue/half black motor points levers with one set leading on and off the Graham road curve in the Down North London line and another set controlling a facing single lead junction leading from the Up North London line (or Up Poplar line?) and onto the Graham road curve with it's associated x3 aspect colour light signals worked off the lever frame by short handle levers to either take a train onto the Graham road curve which required the junction right-hand route indicator (the feathers) being off or a single x3 aspect colour light signal to come off the Graham road curve.
An aerial view of the 'Graham road curve' photographed in 2015 some 30 years after it was constructed. The single line curve connection between the North London line running along the top of the photograph with the Graham road curve to and from Liverpool Street sweeping around towards the bottom of the photograph with the four running lines of the 'Lea Valley lines' running from top to bottom of the photograph- https://anonw.files.wordpress.com/2015/ ... ylines.jpg

During the time that I was at Western Junction box between February and July of 1987 (and a few months longer in the latter part of 1987 when I covered the box on the relief) a new weekday Watford Junction to Liverpool Street service was introduced and originally consisted of about seven morning peak hour trains starting from Watford Junction and going into Liverpool Street via the 'Graham road curve' with there back workings all coming out of Liverpool Street as ECS (Empty Coaching Stock) sometime between 9:00-10;00am and going back to the London Midland region likewise during the late afternoon a number of ECS workings came up from the Camden Road direction and went via the Graham road curve into Liverpool Street to form the evening peak hour services from Liverpool Street back to Watford Junction. From memory I believe these morning Watford Junction to Liverpool Street workings and the corresponding evening Liverpool Street to Watford Junction workings that originally started out with seven trains in either direction was quickly reduced to six trains in either direction and by the time that I went to Camden Road in late 1987 and into 1988 had been further reduced to just two trains coming up from Watford Junction in the mornings and going into Liverpool Street and just two trains coming from Liverpool Street and heading back to Watford Junction in the evenings which by 1988/89 I believe was finally further reduced to just one train in the mornings coming up from Watford Junction and going into Liverpool Street and one train in the evening coming from Liverpool Street and heading back to Watford Junction before the this last one train was finally withdrawn completely.