Late nineteenth century drivers and engines

[Barbara Pearce]

My husband's ancestor Johnson Kirton was in charge of Engine 872 "Wizard" from July 28th 1877 to October 20th 1883 when it had covered 301072 miles. He served from Paddington, Peterborough, Northampton (and possibly Chatteris) during his service with the railway. I know this as I have a postcard of the engine with Driver Kirotn on the footplate. Can anyone tell me whther it was usual for such postcards to be produced? What was the line he would have been working for ? I understand the LNER was not formed until 1923 and my husband thinks it might have been "The Peterborough and District"
Would your archive like a copy of the card - or have you got thousands of them already?

[richard]

I think he may have served with multiple railways - especially with Paddington in that list? Although the railway agreements, running powers, etc. were pretty complicated in those days - perhaps he reached Paddington through these.

I have a "Genealogy of the LNER and a Chronology of its Antecedants" (genealogy of companies - not people). This doesn't list a "Peterborough and District". The closest in name was the "Peterborough, Wisbech & Sutton Bridge Railway" (incorp. 1863). This became a part of the Midland & Great Northern Joint Railway in 1893 (part operated by the LNER until the 1930s when it took it over completely).

The Midland Railway (and later LMS) had a line to Peterborough. This (and any associated lines) would not be covered in the book.
The Great Northern Railway also built through Peterborough - their line is the current East Coast Mainline.

The book does not list any LNER connections for Northampton.

Identifying such an early locomotive might be a little difficult, but others in the forums might have books that can help. Does it have any company markings on it?

My archive? Actually I'm just an enthusiast who runs a website, albeit a large website. Others help provide information,etc but I don't have an archive as such. If you have access to a scanner, you could scan the card and upload it to the forums as an attachment. Others might find it of interest, and we can have a crack at identifying the locomotive type and company.

Richard

[Colombo]

Barbara,

I know that there was a Great Western Railway locomotive of the Iron Duke Class named Wizard, which was running from the 1848 to 1873 and I have found it on a web site that lists all the names of the locomotives of this class.

Have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_Iron_Duke_Class. (You may have to follow the links.) There is a replica loco at Bristol.

The London Terminus of the GWR was, and still is, at Paddington, and so this would suggest that your ancestor was a GWR driver, but that does not explain the reference to Peterborough or Northampton, which served by different railways. In those days, you generally got a job on the railways for life.

These locomotives achieved speeds of 80 mph pulling the Flying Dutchman train to Exeter. It may have been number 873, but I have no evidence of this.

The early history of the GWR is summarised on the following web site:
http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/m_in_gwr.htm

I am not sure about the references to Peterborough or Northampton, certainly GWR broad gauge trains did not go there, that was a physical impossibility.

Colombo

[Colombo]

Barbara,

I should have added that the Iron Duke Class were replaced with the almost identical Rover Class locos and these ran with the same names into the 1890s. This clears up the dates on the postcard.

If this is the right loco, you can buy a kit to build a replica from Martin Finney.

See: http://website.lineone.net/~cbwesson/GWR%20Rover.htm

Colombo

[richard]

Colombo: I think you may have found it. The name, approximately the right time, and Paddington all match.
(the Wikipedia page doesn't list 'Wizard' as being one of the Rover Class though)

Barbara: The Iron Dukes were famous engines - easily the most famous of the GWR Broad Gauge engines.

I agree with Colombo about it being impossible for it to get to Peterborough though. Does your picture look like an "Iron Duke"?

The only alternative is that a different company had an engine called "Wizard" and this had running powers over other railways to get to all three cities.

Richard

[x568wcn]

Barbara,

There is a replica loco at Bristol.

Colombo

It's been back in York a while now Colombo, I took these 19/11/2006

[Barbara Pearce]

Thank you all for the coments. I do not think that the "Wizard" you know is at all the same. I don't know how to describe the wheetl formation so I have attache d a picture of the postcard. My husband remembers 2Peterborough, Wisbech and Sutton as a likely comany as they are all near to Chatteris and March[/img]

[richard]

Thanks Barbara - that helps, and the plot thickens!
(the wheel arrangement is a "2-4-0" popular for express passenger types in the late 19th Century)

At first I thought it had a GER look to it and this would correspond to Peterborough, but I couldn't find anything to match. Then I suddenly remembered a very famous 2-4-0 that is in the National Railway Museum at York: "Hardwicke".
Yes it is a very good match.
"Hardwicke was a LNWR (London North Western Railway) locomotive, one of the "Improved Precedents". Also known as "Jumbos" due to good pulling capabilities for their small size. Designed by Webb.
166 built between 1887 and 1901.

Unfortunately 1887 does not match your date of 1877. It is possible there's a typo somewhere, or perhaps as these are "Improved Precedents", you might have a "Precedent"?
I haven't been able to find a picture of a Precedent yet, but I have found a date: they were first built in 1874.
I've also found a reference to the Improved Precedents actually being based on the "Newtons". Can't find a picture of these either (first built 1866)

Here's a picture of "Hardwicke" and a little bit of info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:790_ ... ll_150.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LNWR_Impro ... dent_Class

Some LNWR history:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locomotive ... rn_Railway

Some LNWR loco information:

http://www.lnwrs.org.uk/Glossary/index.php

There's a map here that shows Northampton and a 'thin' line to Cambridge (either a direct branch or possibly running powers?)
No Paddington though.

http://www.lnwrs.org.uk/Map/MapCc.php


Richard

[Colombo]

Barbara,

This is a locomotive of the London and North Western Railway, the self styled Premier Line, which ran from its London terminus at Euston up the west coast route to Scotland.

The LNWR did run between Northampton and Peterborough.

The locomotive is probably a Precedent express passenger loco, although I do not have confirmation at present. There were several classes of fairly similar looking locomotives of this wheel arrangement at that time.

There is a similar preserved engine, but built at later date, in the National Collection. This is the Jumbo class locomotive, Hardwicke.

I have not yet found a photo of either a Precedent or a Jumbo loco on line, but I have found a gallery of photos of live steam models of Jumbos by Aster Models. See
http://www.asterhobbies.co.uk/pages/gallery.htm

I shall look for more information about no.872,

Colombo

[Barbara Pearce]

That is so helpful, thank you very much. It occurs to me that I may have ben misleading in identifying Pddington - certainly that is where the family loved for a time but of course that is walkin distance from King's Cross tooand I believe that line does go to Cambridge whence a branchline used to go to Chatteris where the family origins are and to which Johnson and his wife returned in later life.
Regards to you all,
Barbara

[x568wcn]

Yes it lives currently on the NRM Turntable, taken here 26/11/2006 during the Victorian Christmas weekend.

[Colombo]

Barbara,

Last night I looked in our Library at the Clay Cross Model Railway Society and found some interesting photographs taken after the Grouping in 1923.

The first was of ex-LNWR Precedent no.5001 Pitt at Chester in 1929. Frankly it confirms that Jumbos, Precedents and the Wizard all look much the same. So go and see Hardwicke at the NRM if you can, take your photo and show it to a curator.

There was also a photo of ex-LNWR loco on a passenger train at Peterboro' (East ) station on one of the now closed cross country lines to Rugby and Northampton. There was also one leaving Berkhampstead on a Northampton train, thus confirming that LNWR trains originally served these destinations.

Engine drivers used to learn particular routes, knowing all the signals, speed limits and stations by heart. They could not drive on routes that they had not been "signed off" on.

In the 19th century, they also used to be allocated, with a regular fireman, to a particular locomotive for which they were responsible and they often worked 6 days a week and often 12 hours a day. Mr Kirton would most probably have been a dedicated employee, a member of an elite profession, proud of his company and his locomotive, with an intimate knowledge of the routes of the LNWR in the Midlands.

Colombo

[richard]

Barbara: I don't know much about the LNWR but I agree with Colombo.
These were top line engines (cf. the fame and fortune of Hardwicke), and parallels can be drawn with the LNER Pacifics during the 20th Century.
Mr Kirton would have been amongst the very top engine drivers on the LNWR at that time.

Richard

[Barbara Pearce]

Many thanks for all the information and pictures which both I and my husband have enjoyed seeing.
Is NRM The National Railway Museum and is it at York? Do they have a website? We are very unlikely to get there from Wiltshire in the near future but perhaps I could Email a curator with a picture of Wizard and ask about its rellationship to Hardwicke and Precedents etc.

Yesterday's disruption was amzing in this part of the world. the Plymouth train was two hours late into Paddington but it did get there anad thismorning GWR was the only line with no cancellations. They had worked hard. I hope that you were all OK. We lost a tree and a couple of bays of fence but no real disasters.

[richard]

Yes the National Railway Museum at York. Their site is here:

http://www.nrm.org.uk/home/home.asp

I think they're currently moving their archives, so I'm not sure how much information they could give you in the short term. One reason for the move is to make the archives more accessible to the public - so it could be worth a trip in 6-12 months?

It is a very good museum - arguably the best railway museum and collection in the world. Most are forced to keep a lot of their collections outside - not so with the NRM which has most under cover, on loan, or in steam! I was very impressed when I visited in 2005 - it has changed a lot from when I visited it on school trips! (I grew up in the general area)

The weather? So I hear! We've had some pretty wild weather here in Dallas (Texas). Generally windy for a few weeks but not gales. However we've had an ice storm come through. Not as bad as the media have made out, but it has been freezing or near freezing for about a week now - usually ice storms only last about a day. The main worry isn't so much the ice, but the other drivers who don't know how to drive in icy conditions. Our new dog met (and ate) his first snow this week...

Richard