The LNER Encyclopedia

Hi... what a great site! Exactly what I'm looking for.

I'm a Hull lad living in Australia this last 40 years and I'm now taken by a strong desire to research all I can about my father - Cyril James Hawcroft.

He was a locoman at Dairycoates Yard for about 40 years I guess.

I've seen a few other posts from people looking for information about their relatives and they haven't got any replies. So I guess we're a small group of people and it's very possible no one will know anything my Dad, either.

But I will welcome any information at all about anything about what would have been his working life in Dairycoates.

Which engines would he have probably worked? I know he was what he called a 'top link' driver and I think that means he drove long distance express trains.

Then he finished his working life driving shunters around the yard.

I've got the BR Steam Shed Allocations, North Eastern Region Sheds and I guess I could assume he could have drive any of the locos listed for Dairycoates (53A) - but perhaps someone has better knowledge and could narrow it down a bit for me.

I would like a map of the yard, even if only a mudmap from memory.

A drawing of the buildings where the men went to start work, to change, to eat, to visit the offices or whatever. Even where the bikesheds were - they all went to work on bicycles in those days, not motor cars.

A description of what they had to do when they started work - checking out the locos? Servicing? What?

Information on salaries and working hours - he was always, all our life, on call. A man would come around with a little brown piece of paper which called him back to work at some peculiar time and off he'd go. I lived my life without a Dad because of that.

I'll accept, I'll be interested in, any information at all that anyone may have.

And, of course, I'll always be happy to share anything I have.

I can't help feeling it is a mighty shame these great old locos have gone. Dirty and inefficient as they may have been.

regards,

d hawcroft

I too am from Hull but I was a fireman from Botanic Gardens loco.
Botanic loco worked passenger trains whilst Dairycoates & Springead worked goods trains this was around 1947 onwards.
When I was a passed cleaner and able to go on firing trips,I was sent to Dairycoats many times. It was a huge shed with an enormous variety of locos and I can't provide layouts,sorry.

Top link at Dairycoats in those days was mainly express fish working. The train was of fully vacuum braked wagons and was best described as a flat out run.

Generally,the motive power for these trains was a K3. These loco's invented the term Rock and Roll long before the music.
I left Botanic and Hull to go on promotion to Bradford about 1953 so whatever changes were made after that,I don't know.
Most loco sheds were dirty but I can say the Dairycoates was dirtier than most.
As for the brown "Tickets" they were mainly given out to "Spare Link" drivers and fireman or passed cleaners. You had a "Booking in time" either a.m or p.m. with no rostered job attached to this time. If you didn't get a ticket,then you booked on at that time probably for Stab & Prep (stable and prepare) The arrangement was that you could have a ticket delivered calling you out up to 3 hours either side of your rostered time. Many's the time I've come home from the pub to find that my Mam had accepted a ticket on my behalf and had to scramble into working gear and do an 8 hour shift.

Happy days!!

Bricam, thanks a lot for that. It is EXACTLY the kind of stuff I was hoping to get. Exactly. Even the little detail of Dairycoates being dirtier than most sheds I find very valuable.

Dirt was a thing in those days. The whole country was filthy. I remember the shock I got when I first revisited Hull after ten years away - I left in '58 and first went back about '68 - and the whole town was clean. No soot. No dirt, no grime. (No seagulls or fish smell, either).

Prior to that time thick layers of oily grime were everywhere, weren't they? After a day's work on the back of every collar.

Even the motorbikes of the day constantly leaked oil. What an enormous shock when the Japs sold us motorbikes that didn't leak and started immediately.

I've got vague memories that Dad spoke of working from or in Botanic sometimes. I wonder if I'll perhaps be able to get records of locomen's rosters somewhere. I'm asking the LNER encyclopedia for info and they seem to have a lot. They've got some sort of plan of the yard, or part of it, but I couldn't buy it and download it online because their webpage didn't work. I've emailed them about that and probably I'll be able to get it next week.

Thanks for tip about K3's. There appears to have been about 41 of them allocated to Dairycoates and all withdrawn from service by end of '62.

If you - or anyone - has any more of this kind of background detail of the working life of locomen in those days I'd love to have it.

regards,

dh

There were nowt wrong with them k3S. the shopping mileage was just too much.

Try contacting the NERA North Eastern Railway association.
http://www.ner.org.uk/

One of the volumes Vol 1 Chapter 4 p93 (ISBN 0 902835 13 0 published by HMRS) of their North Eastern Record has a photo of Dairycoates taken in 1913. held by the K Hoole collection.
Caption underneath states "The allocation in 1913 consisted of 139 engines with a staff of 677"
Further photos should be available at Darlington museum in the Ken Hoole centre.

Elsewhere in the text it states " Hull Dairycoates was the North Eastern's largest shed, with six roundhouses and two straight sheds"

Just noticed another book on my shelf.
North Eastern Locomotive sheds by K Hoole
David and Charles 1972
ISBN 0 7153 5323 3

It contains a fairly detailed potted history of the shed and workings.
The books I have listed are probably out of print but should turn up on the net through ABE Books or similar.

Hope this all helps.

52D wrote;

There were nowt wrong with them k3S. the shopping mileage was just too much

I'm not knocking the K3's. Just about every one that I fired steamed well and was gaffer of the job but in 1947 the war had ended only two years before and shopping and maintainance was way behind and it showed on engines that had to work hard and fast.
The K3's on the Dairycoates fish trains took a lot of hammer as speed was the main priority for perishable fish and those engines were not "nursed" but run flat out with a fairly low cut off.

Botanic gardens was always "borrowing" engines from Dairycoates especially during the summer holidays and Dairycoates did not part with their best engines and I have had some bone shaking runs to Butlins at Filey and several football specials on some of their K3's and B16's.

Funny thing i was talking to an ex driver who said that K1s at speed were as bad as a K3 for the rock and roll can anyone confirm.

Heres a link that will take you to a layout plan of Dairycoates

http://www.ja-gps.com.au/lner/hulldairycotes.html

regards
Graham

Hi Bricam

Maybe you can help me out. I am modelling Brid for the period 45-60, and as you were a driver out of Botanic Gardens you must have visited there loads of times.

The information I am after is details of the locos that used Brid in those days. The sources I have (mainly old photo's) indicate B1's, B16's, D11's, D20's, D49's, J11,s, K3's, the occasional V2, plus Black 5's, Crabs, Standard 2's & 4's. Can you add any other loco's to the list, also what sort of exotic visitors managed to make it there on excursion trips. Any information would be appreciated as I am trying to keep things reasonably realistic!

In addition my grandmother Helen Lillian Dismore (nee Fairburn) worked in the LNER offices in York during the War, and my Great Great Grandfather Thomas Dismore was a Station Master at Fiskerton in Lincolnshire according to the 1881 & 1891 censuses. Again any further information anyone can provide would be appreciated.

Living in Selby in the 1950's we had a direct line to Bridlington.It was in essence a line for summer excursion traffic as even in the summer of 1953 there were only 3 advertised passenger trains(mid-week) stopping at Selby.These were normally hauled by D20,D49 and V1/V3's(53B).
Through the summer months on Saturdays and Sundays there was a steady stream of excursions starting around 9.30am until 1pm.They reurned anytime after 6pm.Selby shed sometimes used double headed combinations of D20,D49 and LMS Ivatt 4's-they took over from LMS locos at Gascoigne Wood marshalling yard 5 miles west of Selby.
Neville Hill unrebuilt B16's and B1's were the most prevalent performers.Others I have seen passing through but not mentioned in your thread were LMS jubilees,8's,4F's and one unrebuilt patriot 45517 in the very early 1960's

Hope this helps

50c

I forgot this,try website -station buffet bridlinton-for 1950's timetable and photos

50c

Thanks 50c, that's helped fill in a couple of gaps. I've already checked out the Station Buffet site and it is really helpful.

If anyone has any suggestions on useful books on the subject I'd love to hear them. I already have CT Goodes "Hull & Scarborough Railway" and Paul Bolger's "BR Steam Motive Power Depots - NER" both of which have loads of useful information and photo's, but additional material would be welcome.

Leonr2z: I must correct you. I was a fireman at Botanic Gardens not a driver I am only 79 years old!
Got my promotion at Bradford.

L1's were frequently at Brid all from Hull plus one turn that was from Hull to Selby and then double head a Brid loco and train to Bridlington. I mentioned in another post we had a "Hot Box" at one time.

Botanic "borrowed" an old NE atlantic C7 which I've worked to Filey but I do know of at least one occasion when (I presume the same loco) worked to Brid.

In 1948 the year of the class being rendered extinct HLD had five C7s on its books others were at DAR and SCA. Last one to go was 62970 from HLD 12/1948.