Holloway North Down box

[Mickey]

Following on from a post on another topic thread enquiring about Keith Challen who was a onetime telegraph lad at New Barnet North Box in the late 1960s and who was also a signalman in the London area at Holloway North Down during the first half of the 1970s.

I knew Keith slightly around the 1974-75 period although we weren't friends as such but we knew each other when I was a secondman at Kings Cross during 1974-75 era along with several other secondmen who all lived in Welwyn Garden City at that time including Keith as well. Keith left the signalling grade and became a passenger guard on the Kings Cross suburban lines out to Welwyn Garden City & Hertford North I presume due to the impending closure of the last remaining mechanical signal boxes between Holloway & Wood Green during 1975-76 but after late 1975 I left the railway (before re-joining again in early 1979) and never saw him around again.

A photograph of Holloway North Down box https://433shop.co.uk/index.php?route=p ... uct_id=848 taken what looks like shortly after closer in August 1976 with the multi-aspect colour light signals in the photograph bearing K prefix plates although the photograph says 1973. It looks like one of thesignalmans photos that I found on ebay. On a personal note I visited the box for an hour or so in 1972 I believe it was?.

[thesignalman]

A photograph of Holloway North Down box https://433shop.co.uk/index.php?route=p ... uct_id=848 taken what looks like shortly after closer in August 1976 with the multi-aspect colour light signals in the photograph bearing K prefix plates although the photograph says 1973. It looks like one of thesignalmans photos that I found on ebay. On a personal note I visited the box for an hour or so in 1972 I believe it was?.

Thanks for spotting the incorrect date quoted on that photograph of mine. Not so long ago I rediscovered my notes of photographs I took in those days and whilst I had assumed I took the picture when I worked in the area I can confirm that it was indeed 1976 which is three years after I moved away from the ER. I must have gone back specially to take the picture before the box became a pile of rubble. I will correct the date on that web page. Like you I visited North Down just once, Keith was on duty at the time - but obviously it wasn't the day I took the picture as I had thought.

Incidentally, it was Keith who I trained with when I went to Kings Cross as a telegraph boy in 1971.

Best regards,

John

[Mickey]

With regards to my visit to Holloway North Down the visit to the box came about through a London relief signalman who I knew back then and who invited me to visit the box when he was on duty at it one weekday afternoon back around 1971-72 anyway from memory even though Holloway North Down was a modern looking brick & glass building (see John's photo above) I believe from memory the block shelf contained many old wooden block instruments that were mounted on it but the visit it's self is still a bit vague now some nearly 50 years on and I think I may have stayed in the box for about an hour although I didn't want to overstay my visit in case a signalling D.I. showed up unexpectedly?. To gain access to the box from street level on Holloway Road I can't remember now how I got from street level up onto the railway?.

With regards to Keith I do visually recall how he was dressed as a passenger guard at Kings Cross in 1975 where he wore a British Rail driver's cap and a British Rail locoman's small summer jacket which were quite popular with loco crews back in the 1970s along with mid 1970s wide flares (trousers) and Doc Martin boots plus he carried around a locoman's white enamel tea can with his traps (guards bag) slung over his shoulder.

[StevieG]

Access : At a guess Mickey, one way was up something like a narrow vehicular roadway (cobbles or setts?) rising in a southerly direction on the Down side against the side of the railway's viaduct, off Holloway Road, until reaching an open (doorless?) pedestrian doorway in the wall on the left which put you right on the cess side of the carriage sidings; turn left and walk back beside the still rising wall (the side wall of the railway's viaduct) to the sidings' exit points connecting into the two Goods roads; carry on the few yards behind the box until opposite its north end, then cross to the semi-circular external staircase up to the operating floor.
Inside, the majority (possibly all) of the Block Insts. were indeed wooden-cased - the Tyer 'F' design (same as in Fins. Park No 5; and one in Holl.South Down), which had commutators similar to the common very plain black ones by Tyers except that they pointed vertically up when at Normal.
The bells were on a high shelf above the windows, with each bell tapper key in a more modern green metal casing down beside its Block Inst., and having a tell-tale white lamp which lit when the bell rung and stayed lit for perhaps six seconds after the last bell beat, to help confirm which bell had just rung.
The place also had the luxury of a hot water radiator heating system, and had a characteristic smell somewhat like inside Potters Bar which was not many years younger.

[Mickey]

An interesting post Stevie.

The three running lines between Holloway North Down & Finsbury Park No.2 I presume were all worked under Permissive Block working being either goods roads or carriage roads.

I always liked that wooden white painted bracket post signal at Holloway North Down on the Down goods line that carried the two semaphore arms for either (I presume?) the Down goods No.1 line & Down goods No.2 line with both dolls/posts being at the same height side by side and both dolls/posts having 'top finals' (spikes) still mounted on them both until being abolished around 1976.

Until about 1967/68 when the Down slow No.2 line was abolished between Holloway South Down & Holloway North Down it was still possible to observe all three of the Holloway North Down semaphore home signals on the bracket post to all show pulled off to the clear position at the same time although it was a bit rare to see when riding on a passing Up line passenger train although I believe I vaguely recall seeing it on a couple of occasions back then. After the Down slow No.2 line was abolished between Holloway South Down & Holloway North Down around 1967/68 and the connection to the Down slow No.2 line commenced at Holloway North Down the former Down slow No.2 line home signal became the Down slow to Down slow No.2 line signal with the existing Down fast line home signal remaining the same & the former Down slow No.1 line home signal becoming just the Down slow line home signal.

[StevieG]

All correct Mickey.

[Mickey]

Regarding Holloway North Down box on reflection I originally visited the box in 1972 (although it may have been 1971 I can't remember exactly?) when a well known Finsbury Park relief signalman was working the box (he also let be visit Finsbury Park 4, Finsbury Park 5, Hornsey no.1 & Wood Green no.1 when he was working those boxes) then I visited the box again when Keith Challen was working the box one weekday afternoon in the second half of 1974 although I didn't know Keith at that stage. That second visit came about when I was a secondman at Kings Cross loco between 1974-75 and after arriving in Holloway Down carriage sidings (nowadays a housing estate) on a train of class 31 loco hauled ECS from 'the cross' my driver told me to go and make a can of tea so I took the opportunity to visit the box.

From memory both Holloway South Down & Holloway North Down boxes were the last two mechanical boxes to close on the main line in the London area in August 1976.

[StevieG]

" ... Holloway South Down & Holloway North Down boxes were the last two mechanical boxes to close on the main line in the London area ... "

That's right Mickey.
And until that time, South Down's semaphore Down Goods Home with yellow-'arm' Banner-type Distant for North Down below it, up on the retaining wall (with the new layout alterations at Belle Isle, that line had become the Down Slow by then) had been the last ECML semaphore signal in use south of at least Grantham or possibly even further north (except for the miniatures and discs at Eastfield of course).

[Mickey]

" ... Holloway South Down & Holloway North Down boxes were the last two mechanical boxes to close on the main line in the London area ... "

That's right Mickey.
And until that time, South Down's semaphore Down Goods Home with Banner-type Distant for North Down below, up on the retaining wall (with the new layout alterations at Belle Isle, that line had become the Down Slow by then) had been the last ECML semaphore signal in use south of at least Grantham or possibly even further north (except for the miniatures and discs at Eastfield of course).

As you may recall Stevie Holloway South Down's Down goods line semaphore home signal carried on a straight white'ish wooden post had the 'honour' of being the very last semaphore signal still in use in the London area until August 1976 when it was finally abolished. Some on here including yourself Stevie may recall a free newspaper that was produced by British Rail and handed out at all the stations along the route out of Kings Cross to Sandy on the main line and Royston on the Cambridge branch including the whole of the Hertford branch called Livewire which came out every couple of months around 1973-1977 giving regular up dates on all the new works 'in progress' in regards to the then on going electrification and re-signalling work plus new station works and improvements anyway Holloway South Down's Down goods line semaphore signal even featured a front page picture of it in Livewire proclaiming that it was the last semaphore signal to be abolished with the colour light re-signalling work out of Kings Cross.

[Mickey]

Am I correct in recalling that the Holloway North Down Down fast, Down slow no.1 & Down slow no.2 lines semaphore starting signals (all three arms mounted on three separate dolls on one bracket post) towards Finsbury Park all worked in conjunction with a detonator placer mechanism located beside the respective railhead or am I imagining that they all were?.

[StevieG]

".... Holloway South Down's Down goods line semaphore home signal carried on a straight white'ish wooden post had the 'honour' of being the very last semaphore signal still in use in the London area until August 1976 when it was finally abolished. ...."

.... included by the words of my previous last post ....

".... South Down's semaphore Down Goods Home with Banner-type Distant for North Down below ...." - ".... had been the last ECML semaphore signal in use south of at least Grantham or possibly even further north ...."

Yes Mickey, remember seeing it covered in a "Livewire".

[StevieG]

Am I correct in recalling that the Holloway North Down Down fast, Down slow no.1 & Down slow no.2 lines semaphore starting signals (all three arms mounted on three separate dolls on one bracket post) towards Finsbury Park all worked in conjunction with a detonator placer mechanism located beside the respective railhead or am I imagining that they all were?.

All of North Down's passenger lines' stop signals had a co-acting det. placer Mickey.

[Mickey]

Am I correct in recalling that the Holloway North Down Down fast, Down slow no.1 & Down slow no.2 lines semaphore starting signals (all three arms mounted on three separate dolls on one bracket post) towards Finsbury Park all worked in conjunction with a detonator placer mechanism located beside the respective railhead or am I imagining that they all were?.

All of North Down's passenger lines' stop signals had a co-acting det. placer Mickey.

Thanks for clarification Stevie that all three of those 'North Down' Down line starting signals all did work in conjunction with their associated detonator placers located beside each railhead.

[Mickey]

I have a rather good hand drawn track layout that I did myself of all the points & signals at Holloway North Down and in fact of the immediate area of the railway at Holloway through Finsbury Park circa April/May of 1974 which I shall try and post it in the next month or two.

[kxguard]

HI - I was sent this article and have joined so that I can contribute. I am Roy Challen (Brother of Keith Challen) I was a Guard at Kings Cross in the 70's. Keith started as a telegraph lad in 69 at KX. In later years he covered at many boxes including Finsbury Park No 3 and No 5 / New Barnet and a few others before he became permanent at Holloway Northdown. He now lives in Showburyness Essex. Here is the latest photo that I have of him.