The LNER Encyclopedia

During the 1950s and early 1960s many experienced firemen left British Railways to find work with better pay and more sociable hours, the outcome of this meant that firemen were becoming younger. A lot of older drivers were not too keen on having inexperienced firemen working on the footplate with them. As a young passed cleaner I was keen to learn and many drivers helped by showing me the ropes. The more miserable drivers just let me get on with it they had no intention of assisting a young lad, I'm glad to say that these drivers were few and far between.
Alan

Interesting to hear about the differing attitudes of footplate crews Yes, I believe that crews' resentment towards BR's treatment of them inspired the Rev. Awdry's 'Troublesome Engines'. Fantastic book

I used to have to be secondman to a driver called Moaniing Norman, throughout the whole shift there would never be anything right , We shouldn`t have to pick up ( wagons ) , we shouldn`t have to set down , why do we always stand at this signal ?, on and on and on etc.
The best thing about working on a 37 was that it made it difficult to hear him ,

I must have been lucky all of my regular drivers were friendly types but I did odd days with drivers who were not so friendly. With two men working together on the footplate it was much better if crews could get on well together. Imagine doing a ten hour shift with a horrible type .
Alan.

Badwolf: Your email address is bouncing forum emails. I've sent you a private message whilst I was away, but I seen another bounce occurred overnight (btw, I'm back in Texas busy catching up)

Richard

Interesting reading these sentiments!

I (despite my love of the railways) am following my greater love of flying and training to be a commercial pilot, and the biggest training factor apart from actualy flying the plane is Crew Resource Management - or maintaining a synergystic cockpit and don't have argments if you can help it!

Did anything like this exist in BR or not to help crews, or is it a (relatively) modern aviation only thing?

HJ

In my time on the footplate,LNER & BR I never saw or heard of any depot in the NE region that counselled crew management.

There was,at my shed, a mutual improvement class but this concentrated entirely on locomotive managment,signalling and emergency simulations.

I assume that (a) A spirit of dedication and (b) a healthy sense of self preservation would prevail on the footplate.

I might add,that on the move,it was almost impossible to conduct an argument or any other sort of verbal communication due to the racket of a steam loco especially at speed.

I have come accross several drivers who could be accounted miserable in the eyes of a youthfull fireman but now in my mid 70's I think that miserable beggars can be found anywhere and were not the sole preserve of the engine drivers.

The one I was with for some months wasn't miserable but had two sayings that came out time after time every day.

If we were stood at a signal and it cleared, as he opened the regulator he would recite,"And away into the night roared the iron monster, I heard it on a film once".
Even if it was broad daylight.


The other was if we were standing in a loop waiting for a passenger to pass or a fast goods,

"If they had left 5 minutes earlier they wouldn't have to go so bloody fast"

Laughable for the first few times but boy did it get wearing as the months rolled by.

locojoe wrote:During the 1950s and early 1960s many experienced firemen left British Railways to find work with better pay and more sociable hours, the outcome of this meant that firemen were becoming younger. A lot of older drivers were not too keen on having inexperienced firemen working on the footplate with them. As a young passed cleaner I was keen to learn and many drivers helped by showing me the ropes. The more miserable drivers just let me get on with it they had no intention of assisting a young lad, I'm glad to say that these drivers were few and far between.
Alan

When I started as a guard at Guide Bridge in 1979 (I went on to become a secondman and then a driver, though never a driver at GB) I heard lots of stories about the relationships between drivers and firemen, and lots more during my time at Newton Heath.

At Salop (On THAT railway) I was told that GWR drivers would not ever sit with their own firemen. I can believe it. An ex GW man came to assist my train when I broke down near Chester once and the contempt he felt for me as a secondman was so obvious that I wanted to punch him!

At GB there were a lot of different groupings of Drivers: Gorton (GC), Heaton Mersey (LNER), Heaton Mersey (Midland), Edgeley and then the occasional outsiders (Trafford (GC & Mid), Longsight and us newbies). Generally (and I say this with trepidation on a LNER forum!) I found the Gorton men to be thoroughly obnoxious. OK, I generalise, but it is a generalisation that isn't TOO distant from the truth in many cases. There were some Gorton men who were absolute gentlemen (Len Jackson comes to mind), but there were some monsters who made a young guard's life a misery. Mersey men were a mixed bunch and Edgeley men were by far the easiest going. There were similar differences at Newton Heath. God preserve me from Lanky men and deliver me into the hands of a Patricroft man every time lol. They let you drive!!!!

A gentleman old hand train driver was in a class of his own though, a giant amongst men in my eyes. Nobody could understand what I mean unless they had worked with these men, been taught by them, been looked after by them and socialised with them. I would walk to work with a spring in my step at 3 am, knowing that I was with a good driver. I have met many gentlemen, but these people were different.

And largely, I wasted them! When I started in 1979 the very oldest drivers, when they first started, would have fired for people who actually remembered the building of the railways. Had I dug deeply enough I could possibly have found someone who had worked with someone who had actually known a driver on the original Liverpool and Manchester Railway. And even forgetting that, I worked with Agecroft men, Bolton men, Plodder Lane men, Lees men, and I asked them so little. Now it is my turn to be old instead (Or middle aged for the minute!)

God help my grandson if he doesn't love hearing stories about railways!

Brian.