The LNER Encyclopedia

Occasionly the South Howden Push and Pull was worked as an ordinary train ie by a non Push and Pull fitted engine. When so, how did the engine run round its train? Thanks Mick.

Did it need to run round?
Could they get away with a body in the front coach using hand signals?
As long as there was access to a brake handle.

Hi Mick, Interesting poser.Your question indicates there were not two main to main cross overs (or similar arrangement ),with controlling signals to permit a normal run round for loco leading in either direction at South Howden or North Cave. If my memory serves me right, these stations were the two p and p reversal points.If this is the case,did they go down ecs to ,say,Carlton,from South Howden or Sandholme from Cave where such may have existed ? Bricam5 (on this forum) was a Botanic man and said he fired to South Howden on G5s,would he know? Other than that,have no other suggestion, only got as far as South Cave as a schoolboy passenger on the push pull.

ten ten wrote:Hi Mick, Interesting poser.Your question indicates there were not two main to main cross overs (or similar arrangement ),with controlling signals to permit a normal run round for loco leading in either direction at South Howden or North Cave. If my memory serves me right, these stations were the two p and p reversal points.If this is the case,did they go down ecs to ,say,Carlton,from South Howden or Sandholme from Cave where such may have existed ? Bricam5 (on this forum) was a Botanic man and said he fired to South Howden on G5s,would he know? Other than that,have no other suggestion, only got as far as South Cave as a schoolboy passenger on the push pull.

You have summed up my question to a "T", I should have been more explicit.
North Cave would not be a problem, the engine would cross right road at Sandholme.
South Howden, the engine would have to go to at least Barmby to cross over, there was no Cross Over at Asselby or Ouse Bridge and Barnby was only in block for pick up. Obviously arrangments could be made, just an interesting point, how far along the H&B did Botanic men sign? Mick.

Dredging my memory here. Hull to South Howden was in push and pull link and also in No2 passenger tank link. When I was in tanky link ( C12 7395 ) we used to draw forward into cattle dock sidings, take on water and run around our train. There was certainly a crossover on to the main line. Incidentaly, there were more tank hauled trains to S Howden than were rostered for push and pull and even the push and pull trains had to cross over for return. South Howden had two platforms !

Response to the last post. South Howden was as far as Botanic drivers signed for.

Any notable gradient there? : As, if one trailing crossover or equivalent facility was present, it might have been possible (if also presumably authorised by official instruction) to run-round by using gravity shunting of the train?

Further to my post on this subject.
If anyone has access to " The Hull & Barnsley Railway" Volume 2 by B Hinchcliffe. Published 1980. Between pages 64 and 65 there are a series of photos. Plate 26 is a photo of South Howden station platforms looking towards Hull and the crossover from the up to down lines is in the foreground. For obvious copright conditions, I cannot scan it.

The photo is attributed to British Railways.

Was Howden main to main crossover/yard loop the same as some other Hand B stations? see attached,Not a signalman,so may have missed one or more!
Arrive top platform, set stock back on main between points to loop and slip within clearance points (only if train length permits),,guards handbrake on,uncouple, engine forward into platform, Get road back into goods loop over slip onto other main.await slip to be reset from yard to main to main to main .Recouple to set at other end,drawback onto other main and after road reset propel into lower departure platform,in all operations obeying signals and instructions.,with clear understanding.Movements are protected by outer homes and lever collars.Probably other variations are possible.Probably now broken every rule in the book.

It was much simpler than that. South Howden was a major intermediate station and had a fairly extensive goods yard, cattle dock, goods shed, crane and several roads.
All we had to do was pull forward and into the points controlled yard, run round the train after taking water and that was it. Sometimes we used to have a van or two coupled at the back of the train ( usually four coaches ) and we would briefly shunt the yard.

Usually after a Springhead coal working had hammered its way past to get up speed for the slog over the wolds, we would then get the ground frame pulled off to cross over to the down side platform. Then it was our turn for the hefty climb up to Drewton.

There was considerable passenger traffic early mornings as there were a good number of school girls going to Hull to attend a girls college there ( the name eludes me )

As an aside, there was one driver Wilf Raines who was signed further than S Howden. He was the one that was landed with officers specials, normally on a Sunday.

Attached the H&B signalling plans of the two Howden signal boxes. As you can see originaly there would be no problem runing round a train, both boxes had cross-overs. East box closed 12 Dec 1939 and all points and signals were taken out of use, and then obviously not possible to run round at Howden. Also attached signalling plan of Howden West after the closing of East box. Mick.

Hi Mick,see the problem. From what Bricam5 says,the West yard seems to have been in existence into the early fifties.,the p and p went mid fifties, was it August '55?

The yard was there and used, certainly between 1947 and 1953, I moved up to Bradford after that. As I said before it was an extensive yard with ample room to run round a train of four or five carriages. Push and pull working did not need to use the yard sidings if there were no Springhead working imminent. They could simply go forward and then reverse via the crossover. What happened to the yard after 1953, I don't know but if the yard was closed to traffic, then only push and pull working could be carried out. By then I was learning new skills in the West Riding.

bricam5 wrote:The yard was there and used, certainly between 1947 and 1953, I moved up to Bradford after that. As I said before it was an extensive yard with ample room to run round a train of four or five carriages. Push and pull working did not need to use the yard sidings if there were no Springhead working imminent. They could simply go forward and then reverse via the crossover. What happened to the yard after 1953, I don't know but if the yard was closed to traffic, then only push and pull working could be carried out. By then I was learning new skills in the West Riding.

Thanks for the update, as I thought, there was a Run Round in the goods sidings, I will dig out my various drawings and OS Maps.
Being a Botanic man, you will remember, John Hart, Bob Stainforth, Ronny Turner, Vince Gordon, Duggie Rogers, George Wragg and Benny Friend, there are of course many others, but who's names escape me. Mick.

Oh Mick, you had me wallowing in nostalgia with those names. Yes I knew them all.
Benny Friend was the photographer and I still have some snapshots of his of Paragon yard as it was then and an old (tattered) one of my old driver Peter Cross hanging out the cab of 7397. One name of similar seniority to your list would be George Bayford who used to double as running foreman at times. Quite of few of us used to hang out in "The Star of the West" down West street. Off duty, of course.

Of the names I mentioned John Hart, Duggie Rogers and George Wrag are no longer with use. George lived a few doors away from me, and I also went to school with his daughter Pat. John's eldest daughter lives down the next street and almost opposite John's house. Our youngest daughter and her four kids live in Duggie's old house. Duggie's parents were very friendly with my own mother and father who was also a railwayman, and signalman at Springbank North, Willerby and Kirkella Cutting etc.
You will too no doubt remember Fred Derdan and Sam Smith both Botanic drivers and now gone many a year.
Almost time for bed, Paragon box calls at "Six" in the morning. Best Wishes, Mick.