The LNER Encyclopedia

I was just wondering what other member's of his forum thought of the LMS?. As a die-hard LNER man i do like certain other aspects of railway design and practices of the other companies of the BIG FOUR especially the LMS. On LMS locomotive design i liked William Stanier's Duchesses, Jubilees, Black 5s & 8Fs and i also liked Henry Fowler's 'jinty' 0-6-0Ts and his 4Fs. On LMS rolling stock i liked some of there passenger coaches that were in use in the 1930s as well as there LMS brake vans which i thought were 'good looking' if one can think that brake vans are good looking?. On the signalling side i liked the LNWR designed signal boxes (over the Midland railway design and all things Derby) and especially the LNWR Webb designed 'stirrup lever' which i am loathed to say was a better design over the 'catch handle' design which was found elsewhere on other railways including the GNR/GER/NER in this country. I have worked North London railway signal boxes (that company was part of the LNWR/LMS) and there North London railway/LNWR 'stirrup lever frames' in the past in the London area as part of the old London Midland region and i must say they are lovely lever frames to work from a signalman's point of view. Micky GNR/LNER all the way...

Micky wrote:I was just wondering what other member's of his forum thought of the LMS?.

This just reminds me of one of Alan Coren's quotes.....

'What the purpose of Sainsburys?'
'To keep the riffraff out of Waitrose'

All four Railway companies were big corporations, on about the same level in their day as BA, Tescos or Sainsburys. No amount of looking at their engineering bit through rose tinted glasses changes that.

In its day the LMSR was claimed to be the largest joint stock company in the world. The world's largest transport organisation, the largest commercial company in the whole of the British Empire and this country's second biggest employer after the Post Office, with more than 250,000 staff. It also had huge commercial interests outside of actual railway engineering and operation. So, it was a seriously mega organisation in every sense of the word. It was also the only railway company to operate in all parts of the UK.

Yes i know what you mean Bill and if this was the British Railways Encyclopedia boards i would go along with what you say (because i liked BR and would like to see it return one day) but it isn't. Sometimes i see pictures of the LMS and think to myself that 'the other lot' looked as interesting as the LNER. Micky GNR/LNER all the way...

I have always felt that that an enthusiast's allegiance to a particular railway is rather like a fan's love of a football club. Often geographical, illogical and definitely not open to reason! As a kid I disliked the GWR, mainly because it dominated the magazines and the model railway exhibitions and I yearned for more variety. The LMS? Well I have to admit that I used to enjoy spending a day at Watford Junction. So many expresses seemed to have two locos on the front. It was only later that I wondered why, when the trains that passed through my home station (WGC) seemed to manage quite happily with one.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I prefer Gresley to Stanier, and the B1s to the black-fives. But a realistic assessment might conclude that the two railways could have swapped their loco stock and still worked efficiently (all other things being equal). What might a Duchess have achieved in Mallard's place on Stoke Bank?
In any case it's a pecularly British habit to set such store by the appearance of a locomotive; just think of German, French or American steam locos.

Chaz

Thats funny that you should say that Chaz because i all most feel 'treacherous' to the LNER saying that i enjoy some of the LMS!!!. Hell, i was born and brought up on the LNER first around Highbury Vale (near Finsbury Park No1 s/box) then like yourself at Welwyn Gaden City lineside and then working in Welwyn Garden City s/box as a telegraph lad. I know what you mean about the GWR although in the last few years i have come to really like GWR locomotives especially those of Mr.Churchward. Micky GNR/NER/LNER all the way...

Bill's comment about the position of the railway companies is quite apposite, although nowadays you are much more likely to be able to switch allegiance if your local supermarket isn't to your liking.

WRT Micky's original post, there's much to admire in almost all the Big Four if you look for it; I can be as one-eyed as anyone when it comes to Gresley's LNER, but informed and expert opinion tends to agree that the LMS had the most comfortable coaching stock of the time. Once Stamp and Stanier really got hold of it it also had some truly magnificent locomotives. Perhaps if they'd had a publicity department as astute as that on the LNER and Stanier had been more concerned with it, they'd have had the 'Duck's record as well.

I've been to the NRM a few times since the end of last year and I don't think the 'bathtub' loses anything of its magnificence by being parked opposite Mallard.

Micky wrote: in the last few years i have come to really like GWR locomotives especially those of Mr.Churchward.

Steady on Micky. Just sit down and think! GWR? Gresley Was Right!

Don't forget, next time you are with a GWR fan, cast doubt on City of Truro's 102MPH. That always gets 'em going.

Chaz

Good one Chaz but don't GWR fans always come back with the Gresley A1 trails up against a Churchward Castle?. Micky GREAT NORTHERN RAILWAY to the core!.

Micky wrote:Good one Chaz but don't GWR fans always come back with the Gresley A1 trails up against a Churchward Castle?. Micky GREAT NORTHERN RAILWAY to the core!.

Well then you explain that just as the Castle was a development of The Saint, so the A3 was a development of the A1. And then just mention Papyrus.....that should do the trick.

Chaz

Yeah but them GWR fans always bring up the 'old chesnut' about why did Gresley build the A1 GREAT NORTHERN when he could have had there GREAT BEAR for nothing!. Micky GNR/LNER all the way...

Oi! I'm a Great Western fan but I'm realistic enough to know they didn't have a monopoly on good ideas or quality engineering. I quite like the LMS Ivatts and Stanier coaches, the Southern's T9s and N classes, quite a few of the LNER's classes and the Gresley teaks. From an engineering PoV, I'm interested in the autocar (of course), the LMS Garatt and the A4s.

It used to be said that in the 1930s, the best place in the world to be was an LMS coach on GWR metals. The odds on being killed in an accident were about a trillion to one and the comfort was unsurpassed. (And eighty years later, when you travel in a Voyager with a seat back a foot in front of you and the pasenger next to you uncomfortably, intimately close, with screaming kids running riot up and down the aisles, the air con broken and someone two seats in front playing Jamaican gangster 'music' , you think, "This is progress?".)

My favourite comment to puncture the pomposity of anyone claiming X is the 'best', whether we are talking about railway companies or football teams, is "X might walk on water, but everyone knows sh't floats to the surface"....

Autocar Publicity wrote:Oi! I'm a Great Western fan

I'm sure both of your legs are quite firmly attached to the rest of you.....?

Chaz

Just remember, Gresley Was Right and L of a MesS.

I like ALL things GNR especially Stirling & Ivatt locomotives and GNR signalling. I like NER locomotives designed by Worsdell & Raven. I perfer ATLANTIC locos over pacific locos. I like ALL things GCR especially there signalling and CME Robinson's locomotives. I like ALL things Gresley, Thompson & Peppercorn. I like A LOT of the LNWR/LMS especially LNWR/LMS signalling as well as locomotives designed by Stanier, Fowler, Hughes and various other CMEs of the constituent companies of the LMS. I like GWR locomotives designed by Dean, Churchward, Collett & Hawksworth as well as GWR coaching stock from the 1890s-1930s. I like some of the Southern mainly the Bullied pacifics. I like the BR standard loco designs and British Railways from 1948 until about the mid-70s. Micky GNR/NER/LNER all the way...