The LNER Encyclopedia

Hi,

I have a question to tax you all regarding the single line from Hertford East over to Welwyn, in particular the section between Hertford East - Cowbridge - North.

From what I've read of the GE Sectional Appendix instructions, I don't believe there were any staff machines involved in signalling, just a single staff with an Annetts Key to release any points / ground frames as required. Signalling of trains seems to be by telephone between Hertford East & North, with Cowbridge shunter advised as required. However, I don't have a GN sectional appendix to see how that describes the line.

It also appears most of the traffic originated from the GN end of the line, little from the GE side.

Does anyone have any more information on this piece of line?

With thanks,
Brian

In 1947 the working was by train staff and ticket, with tickets just being issued by the 'Hertford North Goods Old Station' shunter for up trains only proceeding from there to Hertford North. The shunter was responsible for ascertaining that the single line was clear to Hertford North before allowing a train to follow a train carrying a ticket, and also for the train staff being at Hertford North Box when required. Trains coming off the main line at the East station towards the North station were authorised to proceed on the single line as far as the East Station box without the single line staff, and on reaching the stop board there, stop and take the staff from the signalman. Correspondingly, trains coming from Hertford North had to stop at the board and give the staff to the signalman. In addition, Dicker Mill Lane level crossing, where the gates were normally across the railway, was worked by the shunter when a light engine needed to cross. The siding there evidently was without signals and the points were worked by hand.
However, the points at the Tottenham and District Gas Coy's siding at Kingsmead were secured by padlock, the key of which was normally kept by the SM Hertford North, with any traffic (limit 30 wagons with a 20 ton brakevan) being worked by the North station pilot engine, daylight only and carrying the train staff for the section.

Hope this helps

Hi,

That's almost a verbatim copy of the wording in the 1961 sectional appendix.
It was the actual equipment used: I'm assuming there were no block / staff instruments and trains were worked by telephone only.

Also, if Cowbridge shunter was responsible for the overall working (as the instructions seem to imply) why was there no note of this in the sectional appendix table that authorised men other than signalmen to issue / collect train staff (table D1 in 1961).

The whole thing seems quite odd, particularly when through traffic between Hertford North and East is factored in? I'm trying to work out why tickets would be issued in one direction only (unless the instruction is poorly worded and I'm not getting the gist of it!)

Brian

Yes, I was referring to the 1947 Sectional Appendix. Can make enquiries next month when we old timers gather for our six monthly meeting and am sure one or two of them worked Hertford Nth box in those days - doubt the people who wrote and signed the special instructions are still around though! My guess, too, is that trains were worked by telephone and the staff was probably no more sophisticated than a piece of wood with a brass plate screwed on to it.

Was told by a fella about six years ago who's now a signaller (still perfer signalman) at Kings Cross PSB that back in the 1970s when he was a humble railman at Hertford North on one of the 'dead telephone' circuits that linked Hertford North with Hertford East on the telephone concentrator in the chargeman's mess room some enterprising railman had wired up a 'direct line' to the public bar of the public house just outside the station would you believe!!!. Mines a pint of McMullen's Hertfordshire bitter cheers!. Micky

hq1hitchin wrote:Yes, I was referring to the 1947 Sectional Appendix. Can make enquiries next month when we old timers gather for our six monthly meeting and am sure one or two of them worked Hertford Nth box in those days - doubt the people who wrote and signed the special instructions are still around though! My guess, too, is that trains were worked by telephone and the staff was probably no more sophisticated than a piece of wood with a brass plate screwed on to it.

Anything you could find out would be appreciated.
I'll pm you my EMail address

Brian

The reason why tickets were issued for the single line section whilst the train staff remained at Cowbridge was so that the Ground Frames there could be released by the train staff for shunting to be undertaken by horse.

The sidings at Hertford North were originaly provided as freight exchange sidings. Suburban Coaching stock only started being stabled there
when the freight died out. Four sets of quadarts were stabled at Gordon Hill and provided the main source of coaching stock for the morning peak service.

I was signalman at Hertford North from 1971 - 1973 and we had three suburban sets stabled overnight in the sidings and one set between the peaks.

Although it's not directly related to the topic but following on from Dave's posting, around 1974/75 and maybe several years before?, i believe a set of inner suburban non-corridor stock was stabled over night in the up siding at Cuffley station ready for the following mornings 'peak' service into Kings Cross because a light engine from Finsbury Park depot would work down light engine in the morning for this working. Micky

Ah! That's a missing piece of information!

I have details of train workings for 1950 and they aren't balanced (three through to Hertford E but only two back). It's possible that the timetable doesn't show LE workings, but I was curious why tickets aren't issued by either signalman, rather than just the shunter in the middle.

Brian

Micky wrote:Although it's not directly related to the topic but following on from Dave's posting, around 1974/75 and maybe several years before?, i believe a set of inner suburban non-corridor stock was stabled over night in the up siding at Cuffley station ready for the following mornings 'peak' service into Kings Cross because a light engine from Finsbury Park depot would work down light engine in the morning for this working. Micky

Certainly one set of 'block-enders' was stabling there around 1969/70 time.
There were at least two other evening Cuffley terminators, but I think they were DMUs, which headed back up to, I suppose, GB [Finsbury Park Carriage Sidings (up side)] and on to / or direct to EO ("Western Sidings", south of Fins.Pk. down side).

Micky wrote:Was told by a fella about six years ago who's now a signaller (still perfer signalman) at Kings Cross PSB that back in the 1970s when he was a humble railman at Hertford North on one of the 'dead telephone' circuits that linked Hertford North with Hertford East on the telephone concentrator in the chargeman's mess room some enterprising railman had wired up a 'direct line' to the public bar of the public house just outside the station would you believe!!!. Mines a pint of McMullen's Hertfordshire bitter cheers!. Micky

Very enterprising then! Anyway, you can still see a part of the old trackbed from the front of the station, just walk into the car park and there's some steps which go up, just continue until you get to the top and there's a mobile phone transmitter on the old trackbed.

Was bored one day so went for a walk round the car park and had a look.

When I was much younger (in the early 80's) I used to be able to catch a train to Hertford E & walk along the formation to North to see a girl I knew. I recently had a look and was surprised how little is left.
I think Dicker Mill London end gate was present and a short piece in the car park at Hertford Nth but all through Hartham Park is missing and they've built on it at Port Vale.

I saw a proposal a little while suggesting reinstating some of it as part of route improvement. Can't see it happening now!

Brian

Indeed nothing will come of any link between the GNR and GER routes although I can't see why BR never put in a headshunt along side Platform 1 at Hertford North as the room was there and there still is room.

Anyway does anyone have a copy of the station plans (Hertford North) on how it was back in the 70s? I don't mean the track plans but rather the building layout.

What was where etc...., I mean the current Platform office used to be the parcels office but I'm interested in more

ajax103 wrote:Indeed nothing will come of any link between the GNR and GER routes although I can't see why BR never put in a headshunt along side Platform 1 at Hertford North as the room was there and there still is room.

Anyway does anyone have a copy of the station plans (Hertford North) on how it was back in the 70s? I don't mean the track plans but rather the building layout.

What was where etc...., I mean the current Platform office used to be the parcels office but I'm interested in more

Ajax,

As far as I can recall the exixting arrangements of buildings on the platforms at Hertford North is the same now as it was in the 1970's.

Parcels were taken down stairs to the ticket office as soon as they were unloaded from the guards van and the reverse arrangement applied when the the ticket office had parcels to be forwarded on a train.

There was a train cancelled up from Hertford North one day when I was on duty in the signalbox around 1971. The reason being that a consignment of bees being conveyed in a special ventilated crate escaped en mass causing the guard to abandon his guards compartment and the passengers to transfer to the leading car of the two car Craven unit. The unit got shunted to the sidings and a bee keeper was called out to try and get the bees back into the crate but to no avail. The bee keeper ended up letting off a special toxic spray and the bees were killed off. I remeber one of the Leading Railmen had to go to the sidings and sweep all the dead bees up off the seats and floor of the unit.

Unusual reason for atrain to be cancelled eh?

Dave Cockle

Indeed, although I did have the long line announcements sometime this week stating how sorry we were for the late running of one of the terminators - train in question was actually safely stabled in the yard!

I'm sure you can think of many more though!!!