The LNER Encyclopedia

Anyone know when Hatfield No.3 closed please.

30.11.1969 according to the Signalling Record Society

Regards

Andy

Thanks I remember it being still there around the summer of 1969.

I liked Hatfield No.3 although by 1969 it's layout had been rationalised quite a bit.

Can anyone answer this question?. When a train was routed from the up Luton line or st Albans branch via Hatfield No3s home signal mounted on either signal gantry with Hatfield No1s distant signal mounted below where does Hatfield No2 box fit in with this arrangement other than using the main to main crossover and the up fast to up slow line lead?. Presumedly a train coming off the up Luton line or st Albans branch would be signalled ON THE BLOCK from Hatfield No3 via Hatfield No2 then on to Hatfield No1?. Or was there another way?. I am presuming that both signal gantries coming off the up Luton line and the st Albans branch were worked by Hatfield No3 and that the home signals coming off the up Luton or st Albans branch that read through the down fast/main to main crossover/then either a long the up fast line or to up slow lines were 'slotted' with Hatfield No2 the other signals on both gantries being worked solely by Hatfield No3. It is something that i never really found out about how this 'arrangement' between Hatfield No3/Hatfield No2 & Hatfield No1 worked regarding the 'block working & slotting arrangements' between the signals & points especially between Hatfield No3 & Hatfield No2?. Both signal gantries were abolished sometime around 1967/68 about the time that i first saw them when the track layout at Hatfield No3 was simplified i believe.

Micky wrote:Can anyone answer this question?. When a train was routed from the up Luton line or st Albans branch via Hatfield No3s home signal mounted on either signal gantry with Hatfield No1s distant signal mounted below where does Hatfield No2 box fit in with this arrangement other than using the main to main crossover and the up fast to up slow line lead?. Presumedly a train coming off the up Luton line or st Albans branch would be signalled ON THE BLOCK from Hatfield No3 via Hatfield No2 then on to Hatfield No1?. Or was there another way?. I am presuming that both signal gantries coming off the up Luton line and the st Albans branch were worked by Hatfield No3 and that the home signals coming off the up Luton or st Albans branch .... were 'slotted' with Hatfield No2 the other signals on both gantries being worked solely by Hatfield No3. It is something that i never really found out about how this 'arrangement' .... worked regarding the 'block working & slotting arrangements' between the signals & points especially between Hatfield No3 & Hatfield No2?. Both signal gantries were abolished sometime around 1967/68 about the time that i first saw them when the track layout at Hatfield No3 was simplified i believe.

Sorry haven't got around to contributing something back on this before now, Micky.
I first got to see the remaining arrangements, at Hatfield 2 just after the time you mention, not all that long after Wrestlers' Bridge had 'fallen', after which the Luton line and the Up Goods from Welwyn Garden City were left severed at the bridge site, never to be restored (thus leading to WGC No.5 points, Down Slow-Dn.Back Platform(/Luton line), and 4 & 6 signals, being created).
All that was left for crossing at Hatfield was the Up Fast-Down Fast trailing crossover, and use of the Fast-Slow facing crossovers in each direction as necessary.
Both the latter, when used purely for F-->S regulating moves, were worked and signalled by the respective box; No.3 on the Down and No.2 on the Up.
But the F-F trailing xover had to be jointly worked. It was electrically released by No.3 and electrically backlocked and mechanically pulled by No.2, with No.2 also working the DF to UF or US ground disc signal, and having a slot on No.3's disc reading from the DS, back thro' the DF-DS 'turn-in' crossover points, to the DF disc.
There was no Block instrument working between Nos. 2 & 3 for the crossover; only a block-type bell which I'm sure was labelled 'Interlocking bell'.
When 'the crossover' (Down/Up crossing arrangement) was in this reduced form, there was only one possible set of No.2 points in No.3's layout left that was subject to the joint working, so all I remember the interlocking bell being used for was to 'offer' and 'accept' trains ready to cross from the originating box, using the standard block 'Is Line Clear?' bell codes to confirm the type of train.

'The crossover' had, at the time you're asking about Micky, as you know, been more complicated, on the down side only, extending as far as the Carriage Siding which curved away on the west side of, and parallel to, the St.Albans branch as it parted company with the main line (north of the St.Albans Road East overbridge and around the back of the then Hatfield (HF) bus garage), also featuring slip connections with the Down Slow, the Luton single line and the St.Albans branch as it crossed them (as the Carriage Siding was accessed by a facing connection off the St.Albans line, 'the crossover's access to it, including the slip to the St.A line, meant that the combined connections were actually in the form of a double slip in the St.A line).
As the Luton and St.Albans Line slips were facing to Up trains direct access was afforded to the main Up lines for through trains from Luton/Dunstable or St. Albans to run beyond Hatfield, to London, hence the tall and large bracket signals that you ask about, but, from some JH diagrams, it appears the case that the facing slip in the St.A line was removed about 1935/40; presumably there were then no actual or intended, through services from St.A any more (insufficiently competitive with the LMS's two services perhaps.). So thereafter, that line's bracket home signals only read to the 'Western Platform' [platform 4(?)] and the down sidings/Loco, although the Carriage Siding connection and disc to 'the crossover' were retained, so theoretically at least, a non-passenger train (incl. ECS) to cross from Down to Up could be put in there, out of the way, by No.3, until all the necessary lines were clear for the crossing move.

So, to the Up Luton line bracket signal, which I think ended up with 8 arms : a Home and lower Distant arm to each of the Up Fast and Up Slow lines, plus a lower Calling-On arm to US, the Home and C-O to the Western Platform for terminators, and a low, right-bracketed miniature arm for moves straight in to the down sidings/loco.
As you say, except for the signals to UF and US, the rest were entirely controlled by No.3 box.
The Homes from Luton to UF & US were slotted, worked by both No.3 and No.2. Their two lower Distants applied to No.1 box's signals, but somehow I think they were fixed at caution in latter times, though a 1915 diagram of JH's shows them, and the ones from the St.A line, to be workable.
When I first went into No.2, - and I think until at least when No.3 closed and No.2's interior had to be re-organised with it becoming a 2-way box in taking on the down lines, - behind the frame, two large square-ish(!) black mechanical slot indicators remained, with each of their vertical slides showing its red "ON" (white letters) position through the usual frontal apperture, which I was sure must have been to show the No.2 signalman when No.3 had pulled his slot reading to whichever Up line.

Now, in those times, No.3 still did all the releasing for 'the crossover' (5 releases, 20-24; later only four), and No.2 did all the pulling. So, before 'the crossover's last simplification, the interlocking bell was used differently, with the asking and acknowledging code being used to determine which down side line the movement needed to cross from or to, and thus which release, and points/signals, were required to be used. I think I remember seeing such codes listed somewhere, and one of them was 4-3. Whether the train's class or number was identified by another code or was just assumed as a booked working according to the timetable or telephoned specially if unplanned, I'm not sure.

Anyway, even when ILC codes were used latterly, as well as the specials as in the multi-release days, a train was asked on the interlocking bell (preceded by the 'Call Attention' 1 beat each way of course), by the originating box (i.e., No.3 for an up Luton line train for London), and only acknowledged when the receiving box could accept and allow/set the move, after which the points could be released and set.
Apart from that, the crossing moves were dealt with in the normal way, so the Up Luton train would be offered forward from No.2 to No.1 on 'the Block' whenever it was appropriate (probably just before setting up the crossing), and the signal could be cleared whenever desired after it had been accepted by No.1.

No other bell signals were used on the 'Interlocking bell' that I know of, the train just setting off over the 'crossover' as soon as ready after the signal(s) cleared, and then the various slots, signals, points, release and backlock being normalised as soon as legitimately possible behind the movement (to minimise potential hold-up to the other box's other trains), a few most important steps being indicated in the opposite box to keep things co-ordinated : Mainly No.3 waiting to see No.2's Backlock lever being normalised (only possible when the crossover points were back in Normal position), indicated by the indicator for his release lever going back from LOCKED to FREE, to know when he could normalise the release and begin signalling other trains through on the Down lines again.

It may also be of interest that, prior to, I think around 1953, 'the crossover' was more complex still, in that it extended across the up side all the way into the up yard, with slip connections in the Up Fast, Up Slow, and Hertford single line/Up Goods : And the up yard signal for 'the crossover' once had 6(!) miniature somersault arms, stacked vertically, although by around 1940 it appears this had been reduced to one arm, but still worked by the six separate levers in No.2.

There were once, at some time, other such jointly-worked Up / Down 'crossovers' (not all complex ones) : e.g.,
Hatfield No.4/No.1 (later all the combined No.1 box's);
Barnet No.2/No.1 (Up Sdg.-Down Goods, 7 roads; later New Barnet South box's, but US-DS Only);
Oakleigh Park Down/Up (two);
Cemetery Down/Up;
New Southgate No.2/No.3 (Up Sdg./Reception-DS, 6 roads; later all New Southgate box's);
New Southgate No.4/No.1;
Wood Green No.2/No.3 (Up Slow-Down Carr.Sdg.No.2, 6 roads; lasted, as US-DS, until some time around 1960);
Wood Green No.4/No.1 [ (Up Reception lines 1 & 2)/Up Carriage-Down Siding No.2: At least 10-12 roads & point connections: Levers 1-6 (releases believed to have been mechanical) in No.4 and 1-26 in No.1; lasted, as UCarr.-DG, until some time around 1960];
Harringay Up/Down;

And lastly, Holloway North Up/North Down [with Hatfield, the other latest jointly-worked survivor in the London-ish area (became the very last); Up Goods(+accessible from Up Coal) - (down)Through Siding, connecting (8/)7 roads: Reduced in about 1970 to merely connect the Up Fast with the DF and Thro'.Sdg., crossing the two Down Slows by simple diamond crossings, without connecting with them, and no longer connecting with the US or Up Goods at all, ahead of North Up simplification and abolition for takeover by South Up: -
- Novelly, that change involved the original arrangement of North Down releasing and NU pulling, being altered, keeping the remaining parts mechanically operated, to be released from South Up (too far away for mechanical points-pulling), and pulled by North Down.].

The above does not include jointly-worked running, or sidings/running line, simple crossover connections, such as at Harringay West, and Hornsey (up side).

Thanks Stevie that interesting.

Micky, Oops, missed out something that you might wonder about.
Just added a paragraph just over halfway down; (starts "No other bell signals....").

Thought this might be of interest, Micky,

John

Hi

I found this forum through googling info on the Hatfield No 3 box, and wondered if anyone can confirm if this image is of that box?



If it is Hatfield, I am also curious as to how an LBSC Loco came to be there. I have done as much research as I can so far, and know that LBSC 319 'Leconfield' is referenced many times on the web, but it always seems to suggest that it was decommissioned whilst still on the LBSC. '4713' Is that a new or temporary head code, or is it just confusing ?

Thanks

Adge

I remember those two gantries they were still there circa 1967/68 before being dismantled.

Gosh, Micky, 18 months since you started this thread and you reply to me so quickly today, thank you.

I guessed my message would be read, but did not expect such a fast response.

Oh the 'LNER' focus I would love people to look at the rest of the 'Steam' images on http://www.historypassage.org.uk and give me as much feed back as possible please. I am in no way a steam buff less even an LNER buff so anyone who spots any mistakes or has added info they can give me, please tell me.

Any comments on why LBSC 319 should be on the turntable at Hatfield would be much appreciated.

Adge

Yeah I know Adge lol ha ha ha...

adgeras wrote: Gosh, Micky, 18 months since you started this thread and you reply to me so quickly today, thank you.

I guessed my message would be read, but did not expect such a fast response.

Oh the 'LNER' focus I would love people to look at the rest of the 'Steam' images on http://www.historypassage.org.uk and give me as much feed back as possible please. I am in no way a steam buff less even an LNER buff so anyone who spots any mistakes or has added info they can give me, please tell me.

Any comments on why LBSC 319 should be on the turntable at Hatfield would be much appreciated.

Adge

Hi adgeras.
I trust you have also seen the several replies, posted in 'another place' even more swiftly, containing information on this after your similar enquiry there ('The Signal Box') ?