The LNER Encyclopedia

Early LNER 61'6" coaches had four truss rods and associated Queen posts... whilst late coaches of similar length had underframes with twin angle iron trusses and Queen trusses. When did the changeover in design take place? How does one determine which diagram got which style of underframe? (in the absence of suitable drawings / photographs)

If it helps to reduce the scope of the questions then I am interested in these diagrams:- D114, D115, D167, D186 and D262.

As a supplementary question... when the change in underframe trussing was made, what other changes were made to the underframe construction and / or layout? For example:- was any change made to the position of the vacuum cylinders?

Thank you, Graham Beare

The various Michael Harris books will give you chapter and verse, and 2512Silverfox of this parish can probably also quote you off the top of his head. Off the top of mine the change to angle trussing came about 1928. I don't think there were changes to the way underframe fittings were disposed, but there may have been changes to fixings and brackets. There was a change to battery box design at some point, but whether it coincides I really don't know.

Graham,

Taking the information from Comet Models, I'm not sure how accurate their information is but, D114 had truss rod trussing up to 1931 and angle iron thereafter. If this was a widespread practice then one would think that from 1931 the change over from truss rod to angle iron took place but as we all know it is rarely that simple.

Looking on the Vintage Carriage Trust website the photographs of LNER coaches shows coaches built up to and possibly the early part of 1931, such as E12493 on the North Norfolk, with truss rod under frame, the next coach with a good photograph is a Gresley TK built in 1934 which shows angle iron under frames.

By the looks of it coaches built with truss rodding and queen posts were not modified they were left as they were built but again whether this was standard practice or not I do not know. I will have a look through my books and see what I can gather.

RobertCWP will probably give you a better information than myself as coaching stock is his area.

Regards

Karl

It would be nice if it was simple to answer this question. The change from a truss rod underframe began in 1930/1 and was gradually introduced over a period of several years. Certainly D167 would all have been the later pattern but D114 comprised vehicles with both underframes and both types of buiffer head. Photos are the best evidence

There were no changes once the vehicle was built. The situation of underframe fittings did not change materially.

There is available a very good detailed drawing of a standard 61' 6" underframe available from MJT via Dart. This was drawn by Mike Trice (originally MJT) from GAs.

The Science Museum has a web-site with on-line access to (low-resolution) images from the many photographic collections in the care of the Science Museum or outposts of that museum. Hence the web-site includes images from the collections at the NRM. Much to my surprise there is an-almost broadside photograph of a D167 Buffet Carriage, see:-

http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/resu ... magepos=13

The photograph has the air of an "official" and if taken when built then the date would be circa 1937. Any comment on that view?

I think that the photograph shows that the carriage has a (large) battery box between the two Queen Truss Girders, I assume that there is another such battery box on the other side of the coach (based upon photographs of each side of these buffet coaches in BR blue/grey livery). Any comment on this suggestion?

The photograph shows two further boxes on the near side of the coach:-
(a) what might be the purpose of these fittings?
(b) what might be the size of the boxes?
(c) just these two? or might there be boxes in similar positions on the off-side?
(d) I cannot see any indication of the second or third dynamos which are thought to have been fitted to the electric buffet carriages... can anyone comment on this point?

thank you, Graham Beare

The photo link posted by Graham shows a very similar under frame arrangement to that found on the Diagram 275 restaurant cars built in 1938/39 - ie the follow on design from the D167 coach. These also had an arrangement of 3 dynamos, 2 for cooking on the kitchen end bogie and 1 for lighting at the saloon end.

Perhaps there might be a photo / diagram of one of these available.

2562 wrote:The photo link posted by Graham shows a very similar under frame arrangement to that found on the Diagram 275 restaurant cars built in 1938/39 - ie the follow on design from the D167 coach. These also had an arrangement of 3 dynamos, 2 for cooking on the kitchen end bogie and 1 for lighting at the saloon end.

"2562" was kind to telephone me last night with the above information and from what he was able to tell me about the underframe arrangements of the D275 coaches then the corresponding Isinglass drawing answers my questions about the referenced photo of D167 Buffet coach number 24280. Viz:-

D167 with electric cooking had one dynamo under the saloon and two dynamos under the kitchen. To fit the two dynamos under the kitchen required that the vacuum cylinder was moved towards the Queen Truss. Moving the vacuum cylinder and associated break cross shaft towards the Queen truss corresponds with a visual interpretation of photographs of the D167 Buffets in preservation (which, having been converted to propane cooking, have had the extra dynamos removed by BR).


Thank you, Graham