The LNER Encyclopedia

I have been looking into what became of the stock from the LNER streamliners after they ceased running upon the outbreak of War in 1939 and am trying to tie up some loose ends, in particular regarding stock lost due to fires and war damage.

It is well documented that the Third-Brake Third twin 1737/1738 was destroyed by fire near Huntingdon in 1951, and the report gives the vehicle numbers. It is clear from the accident report that the adjoining Twin-FO was also destroyed. This appears to have been the former 'West Riding' twin 11115/11116 (originally 45811/45812) as the other three are all accounted for.

In his LNER Coaches book, Michael Harris stated that Third/Kitchen Third twin 1725/1726 was destroyed at Doncaster in 1940, along with 1727 from Third-Brake Third twin 1727/1728, with 1728 being scrapped. The latter is blatantly incorrect because Harris includes a photo of 1727/1728 in BR maroon at York in 1963 in his book.

Railway Observer mentioned that Brake Third-Kitchen Third twin 45801/45802 (post-war 9166/9167) was damaged in the war (and did not re-enter service).

The Summer 1950 ECML carriage workings show three Third/Kitchen Third twins in operation, two in King's Cross-Glasgow trains and the third in a King's Cross-Newcastle set running on Fridays to Mondays (two round trips). I believe that the 'West Riding' also included a Third/Kitchen Third twin at this time, but that is not in the ECML book as it was a GN service. This suggests either that all four were still extant or that one of the three listed ECML workings was covered by other stock.

Please could anyone clarify which sets were actually lost prematurely, other than the known 1737/1738?

robertcwp wrote:
The Summer 1950 ECML carriage workings show three Third/Kitchen Third twins in operation, two in King's Cross-Glasgow trains and the third in a King's Cross-Newcastle set running on Fridays to Mondays (two round trips). I believe that the 'West Riding' also included a Third/Kitchen Third twin at this time, but that is not in the ECML book as it was a GN service. This suggests either that all four were still extant or that one of the three listed ECML workings was covered by other stock.

This excellent publication shows a Brake Open Third/Restaurant Third to be running in the 1.a.m. KX - Edinburgh, attached at Newcastle, presumably for serving breakfasts, returning on the 2.30 p.m. Edinburgh - Newcastle every weekday. It's a pity GN services are not included in the book.

RCTS Railway Observer (RO) 1948 p100 reported streamlined coaches restored to regular service from 31 May 1948 still in their original liveries:

Silver Jubilee [restaurant triplet] 8.15 am Newcastle-King's Cross and 5.30 pm return.

Coronation and West Riding coaches:

[See below for updated list]

The post-war West Riding did not commence operation as a named train until 1949, and used BTO-TO, Twin-FO, RT-TO from the pre-war West Riding Limited (the RT-BTO twin is believed damaged during the war).

However, three RT-TO pairs appear in the 1950 Summer ECML workings, so either one of the ECML workings must have been covered by other stock if one RT-TO was in the 'West Riding', or all four such twins were still extant.

RO 1949 p275: Leeds portion of 'West Riding' listed as BTK 16855, TK 13851, FK 13810, RT-TO 9168/9169, Twin-FO 11116/11115, TO-BTO 16720/16719. Whole train in crimson/cream. On 17/10/49 the restaurant twin was noted replaced by 1736/1735 still in blue livery, so they must have survived the war (or RO got the numbers wrong). Further RO reports in 1953/4 mention the other RT-TO pairs 1715/1716 and 1725/1726 (but numbers might have been mis-reported) but Harris suggests 1725/1726 were destroyed at Doncaster during the war.

BTO-TO 1737/1738 and Twin-FO 11115/11116 destroyed at Huntingdon 1951. 1737/1738 were substituting for the regular West Riding pair 16720/16719 at the time.

This is why things don't quite fit together:

Were TO-RT 1725/1726 also lost at Doncaster in 1940?

Or was it 1735/1736 that were lost?

Or neither?

streamlined carriages in LNER special liveries made it to Cleethorpes after the war???!!

Will

wehf100 wrote:streamlined carriages in LNER special liveries made it to Cleethorpes after the war???!!

Will

Yes, and Yarmouth Vauxhall, though it appears the stock was repainted in crimson/cream pretty early on. I have 1953 Great Eastern carriage workings showing the latter. Published photos of Manchester-Cleethorpes trains in the 1950s confirm the inclusion of ex-Coronation Twin-FOs. Similarly the 'Master Cutler' in the mid-1950s.

This replaces part of my posting above from 2009 as I now have a copy of the Summer 1948 ECML carriage workings.

RCTS Railway Observer (RO) 1948 p100: coaches restored to regular service from 31 May 1948 still in their original liveries:

Silver Jubilee [restaurant triplet] 8.15 am Newcastle-King’s Cross and 5.30 pm return.

Coronation and West Riding coaches (vehicles not specified but identified from the Summer 1948 ECML carriage workings, where possible, and from other reports):

6.55 am Newcastle-Edinburgh [BTO-RT] (attached to front of 1. 0 am from King’s Cross)
2.30 pm Edinburgh-Newcastle [BTO-RT]*

10.0 am Edinburgh-Aberdeen [BTO-RT]
6.45 pm Aberdeen-Edinburgh [BTO-RT]* (attached to front of ‘Aberdonian’ for King’s Cross)

7.35 am Edinburgh-Aberdeen [BTO-RT]
3.10 pm Aberdeen-Edinburgh [BTO-RT]*

12.45 pm (FO) King’s Cross-Newcastle (from 18/6/48) [RT-TO]
9.45 am (SO) Newcastle-King’s Cross (from 19/6/48) [RT-TO]*
4.45 pm (Sun) King’s Cross-Newcastle (from 20/6/48) [RT-TO]*
9.45 am (MO) Newcastle-King’s Cross (from 21/6/48) [RT-TO]*

10.5 am King’s Cross-Edinburgh [RT-TO][Twin-FO]

9.40 am Edinburgh-King’s Cross [RT-TO][Twin-FO]

9.55 am Manchester-Cleethorpes [Twin-FO]

9.45 am Cleethorpes-Manchester [Twin-FO]

7.32 am Sunderland-King’s Cross [BTO-TO] (6.20 am ECS from Newcastle)
3.30 pm King’s Cross-Newcastle [BTO-TO]*

10.12 am York-Yarmouth [BTO-TO]

9.37 am Yarmouth-York [BTO-TO]

* = assumed to be return working of vehicles in previous working listed.

From the above, 1 × BTO-TO, 1 × RT-TO, 1 × RT-BTO (this one believed war damaged) are not accounted for.

Am i getting things confused here. There was a fire in Penmansheil Tunnel involving LNER stock early post war i have mentioned this in another post regarding the internal coatings used which turned out highly flammable was this ex streamliner stock

52D wrote:Am i getting things confused here. There was a fire in Penmansheil Tunnel involving LNER stock early post war i have mentioned this in another post regarding the internal coatings used which turned out highly flammable was this ex streamliner stock

The Penmanshiel fire involved Thompson stock. Huntingdon a couple of years later involved ex-streamlined stock.

Report is here:

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/events ... entID=1117

Thanks for the clarification.

robertcwp wrote:

52D wrote:Am i getting things confused here. There was a fire in Penmansheil Tunnel involving LNER stock early post war i have mentioned this in another post regarding the internal coatings used which turned out highly flammable was this ex streamliner stock

The Penmanshiel fire involved Thompson stock. Huntingdon a couple of years later involved ex-streamlined stock.

Report is here:

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/events ... entID=1117

"Harris" is misleading (unintentionally, no doubt) when he quotes from the LNER status report on the streamliner vehicles. All the vehicles he showed as damaged seemed to have re-entered service. The only vehicles that were lost seem to be the Huntingdon accident vehicles, 11115/6 and 1737/8.

"Bishop" gives the years of withdrawal of the remainder, as follows;

1961 - 9168/9, 1721/2, 1725/6 & 1735/6.
1962 - 1581/2, 1583-5, 1586-8, 9166/7, 1711/2, 1731/2 & 1715/6.
1963 - 16719/20 & 1717/8.
1964 - 1713/4, 1723/4, 1733/4 & 1727/8.
1967 - 1719 & 1729.

A quick glance for Penmashiel victims turns up Thompson BCK 1148 and SK 1498 but the record for the shortest service of that design of stock must be TK 1441 which was barely two months old when it got smashed up at Goswick in 1947.

Andy i will thumb through my Goswick pics tonight to see if i can pick it out (I have pics of four accidents at this spot).

Andy W wrote:"Bishop" gives the years of withdrawal of the remainder, as follows;

1961 - 9168/9, 1721/2, 1725/6 & 1735/6.
1962 - 1581/2, 1583-5, 1586-8, 9166/7, 1711/2, 1731/2 & 1715/6.
1963 - 16719/20 & 1717/8.
1964 - 1713/4, 1723/4, 1733/4 & 1727/8.
1967 - 1719 & 1729.

Some of these were stored in the bays at Manors North station and subsequently broken up at Simonside Wagonworks, Tyne Dock, where the 1920 refurbished EMU stock for the South Shield line had met their fate some time earlier. I'll have to trawl my notes, but off the top of my head, it was 1963.

Bill Donald
Dublin, Ireland

Thanks for the further replies on this topic. Since the original posting I have obtained a copy of BRJ No 52, which gives withdrawal dates and also indicates that the war-damaged stock was repaired. The Harris LNER Coaches book even includes a BR maroon photo of one of the twins he states was withdrawn following damage in the Doncaster fire in 1940!

The new Ian Allan book on LNER passenger trains and formations mentions on page 193 that the ex-Coronation twin-first used on the Master Cutler in the mid-1950s (which I believe was E1713/1714E - the one not used regularly in the Talisman trains from 1956 and not fitted with roller bearings) was "toned down with conventional 2:1 seating".

I have seen no other mention of this having occurred. Is anyone able to corroborate this or shed further light on the change?

The winter 1955-6 carriage workings for the GC line still show 22 seats per vehicle but any rebuild might have happened after that time (the twin appears to have been repainted maroon around 1957-8 when still in regular use in the Cutler).

So far as I am aware, the other two twin-firsts retained their original seating layout and were regulars in the Talisman trains until the end of the 1963-4 timetable.