The LNER Encyclopedia

It has been mentioned in a Facebook group that I belong to that Fowler ex-LMS 2-6-4Ts were tried out at King's Cross for banking and ECS duties.

I'm not sure from the post whether the idea was just mooted or actually took place. Does anyone know about this?

At Kings Cross I don't know how a 'banking loco' would manage to 'buffer up' onto the rear of a departing main line express with the back end of the express fast disappearing into Gasworks tunnel?.

According to Peter Townend in his 'Top Shed', two Fowler 2-6-4T found their way to KX in 1956 and successfully worked Cambridge trains before moving on to Hitchin. (I would guess they were covering L1 diagrams, so may well also have worked ECS; this information appears amid a little discourse on difficulties finding a tank loco with adequate traction for the KX ECS work, after a speed restriction was introduced. An A5 was also tried, and a request was made for a 42xx 2-8-0T to be loaned to be tried on this work. That one did not appear.)

Hatfield Shed wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 10:36 am According to Peter Townend in his 'Top Shed', two Fowler 2-6-4T found their way to KX in 1956 and successfully worked Cambridge trains before moving on to Hitchin. (I would guess they were covering L1 diagrams, so may well also have worked ECS; this information appears amid a little discourse on difficulties finding a tank loco with adequate traction for the KX ECS work, after a speed restriction was introduced. An A5 was also tried, and a request was made for a 42xx 2-8-0T to be loaned to be tried on this work. That one did not appear.)

Many thanks for your reply, and for addressing my topic, which is more than the previous poster did.

I was aware of the A5 allocation in 1960, and of the 42xx proposal, which I assume may have failed because of limited clearances (although Kings and Castles worked out of King's Cross, so there may have been other reasons). Does Townend say why L1s were not ideal for theses duties?

In short, the L1 had inadequate adhesion and could slip to a stand on gradients when taking the heaviest loads. (The A5 with an adhesion ratio over 5 didn't slip, but came to a stand on the gradient due to insufficient tractive effort.) The eventual solution appears to have been pragmatic, either two locos (if available) on such turns, or use a B1.

I've often speculated to myself on this. All of the small number of S1s were withdrawn between March 1954 and January 1957. I would have thought they might have been ideal for banking and ECS work (especially the overnight sleepers) rather than simply going for scrap; but maybe their axle weight was too great for the track work in that area?

Nothing to do with axle weight. It's all to do with the necessity of handling the traffic within the limited number of locos that could be turned around and maintained on Top Shed, combined with the pathing in and out of KX: adding an extra loco or two that could only fulfill a single job was NBG.

The 42xx wouldn't haven't been any good either, far too slow, so another one trick pony. Travelled behind one last year, and it took forever grafting up to the 25mph allowed on a preservation line. (The crew told me it was in good shape). The suburban service locos out of KX had to gallop up to speed very briskly indeed to make schedule.

Hi, never ever saw a down train banked @ the "X",platform end about it,the Night Sleepers&"Aberdonian" V.Heavy Trains, ECS nearly always had a J50 (inbound solo, its all down hill!), a v.powerful loco on its own, but witnessed with a J6/L1/or N1 in tandem northbound,Teddy Bears(N2) smart off the mark like the N7's but disliked by the Scottish Crews& tried on the Bradford/Leeds locals but the (Hammerton St)crews preferred the N1 class better &ended up with most of (34B)'s allocation,even when transferred being overhauled @(30A)Works &finding their way to the "Street"on ECS more than once, the "Metro" gang N2's on ECS didn't usually go past Holloway(down)/or Finsbury Park Carriage Sidings(UP),HornseyMPD(34B) took part in the ECS movements along with Top Shed incl.the L1's.In a past post I mentioned the "Fowler"tanks they came via Neasden & were used on the Peaks from both the"X'& Broad Street reaching as far as Baldock, not sure if they ever reached Moorgate,after (34B)they migrated to the G.E.@(30A)but drifted back to (34D) &finally back to whence they came, Neasden unloved,not really sure if the intention was ECS use,they did find their way on to the "CBE"as did the L1's, of the two(2) one was in bad shape & got returned as less than satisfactory.The A5 I noted in the "X"area was Ex. works with a small BR emblem &fully lined out xxx14 or xxx24, around for a month or so, I only saw it on ECS parcel stock it came for I believe a celebration on the GC & when finished left the London Area returning Northbound to a GC shed in the Nottingham Area (38A)?jj

rockinjohn wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 4:20 am Hi, never ever saw a down train banked @ the "X",platform end...

It wasn't a tradition at 'the cross' going back to GNR days to ever bank a departing Down express out of the terminus unlike at Euston on the LNWR/LMS/BR. On the GN/LNER/BR all departing Down expresses departing the main line platforms tackled the climb from the 'dip' inside Gasworks tunnel and the rising gradient beyond through Belle Isle to the top of the 'Holloway bank' at Holloway North Down (box) alone and besides why have a LMS tank 'dirtying up' the Illustrious LNER metals?.

As "Hatfield"mentioned the locos employed had to be versatile for the rest of the day incl. the "Peaks'from&too Kings Cross/Moorgate/&Broad Street,on ECS or Parcel stock ECS,its surprising how many mainly L1 tanks(concrete mixers)still on standby @TopShed or @ work even after the influx of so many different diesel types in the Area,& yet when the hammer fell the L1's were scrapped with indecent haste,one of the many classes that found their way to (34B)& Finsbury Park TMD were the BR Sulzers type 1 with their spoked wheels,because in the off peak/night rosters the Brush Type 2 were forbidden by the S.R. on inter-regional freight because of weight concerns possibly Blackfriars Bridge the culprit?,On the sad demise of another Class the "Baby" Deltics(a brave man before or after Rectification sent them further than Baldock or Cambridge) which but soon went as being a Non-Standard Class,going back to early diesel days , it amazed me that a "31"could be so versatile on Surburban/ECS yet on Bank Holidays or Motive Power Shortage found them EX. the "Cross"in Sheffield/Grantham & the Lincolnshire &East Coast resorts amongst other Destinations,Going full circle on LMR Borrowed/Exchanged locos Diesel or Otherwise the LMR inquired that they would swop some BR SulzerType1 for the GN's EE type1's, but Hitchin(34D) &higher ranks quite happy with their allocation politely declined the offer,so Mickey tainted by the LMR allocation ha.

rockinjohn wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 3:38 am ...its surprising how many mainly L1 tanks (concrete mixers) still on standby @TopShed or @ work even after the influx of so many different diesel types in the Area,& yet when the hammer fell the L1's were scrapped with indecent haste...

This is as simple as the plan said 'steam gone', and woe betide any manager that stood in the way of that!

rockinjohn wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 3:38 am .....one of the many classes that found their way to (34B)& Finsbury Park TMD were the BR Sulzers type 1 with their spoked wheels,because in the off peak/night rosters the Brush Type 2 were forbidden by the S.R. on inter-regional freight because of weight concerns...the LMR inquired that they would swop some BR SulzerType1 for the GN's EE type1's...

There are interesting stories about what was 'permitted' with the small Derby diesels. Basically the instruction appears to have been 'not to be made to work too hard'. Had they been up to the job, they would have been in the rough and tumble of all the KX suburban services. Present for about five years, between 1961 and 66, at 34G: but not that much in evidence as seen from the country end of the inner suburban service. (And if only a steam heat boiler could have been wedged into the EE type 1 it could have been used year round on the inner suburban services.)

rockinjohn wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 3:38 am ... it amazed me that a "31"could be so versatile on Suburban/ECS yet on Bank Holidays or Motive Power Shortage found them EX. the "Cross"in Sheffield/Grantham & the Lincolnshire &East Coast resorts amongst other Destinations...

The truth will out. In the longer term the robustness of the Brush 2 construction meant that once with a reliable EE lump inside, it outlasted all other type 2, and was proven capable of significant power uprating had that ever been necessary.

Fair comment nothing was banked out of the "X" but maybe they sometimes should have been to @ least Belle Isle Box, but for the odd occasion,not everything went to plan, I can remember an instance where I watched a main line departure stop &then slide v.slowly back, not reaching the catch points if there were any?before coming to a halt, maybe a Loco off the "X" stabling point helped out @ this point, to long ago to remember& during the War Years stalling occured quite regularly with 14 +(on),most reports I read of slipping on Greasy Rails or even Stopping&Restarting usually just past the Canal, involved the "A1"class of the Timken Bearing fitted Class Members,but I'm not an ex.Steam Era Railwayman, so maybe just coincidence,reminds me of the Cartoon of a Works Painter leaning his Ladder on the Tender of a Loco& it rolling away from the painter.

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Mickey, I bow to your better(superior) knowledge on Signalling &Pointwork in the Area,maybe IF the loco ex. the loco siding gave it a little push & it then scuttled back to the sidings, who knows or maybe the Train Engine gained its feet &off it went,a thought.... IF ever the plan was to bank Expresses(which would have had a faster passing time @ the"Park"& not taxed the train engine so early in its journey with the Northern Heights still before it) over the years why couldn't the trailing loco simply drop off @ Belle Isle?& reverse on to "Top Shed" for further use or Lay By until called on & not use the "X" sidings after the initial push...

rockinjohn wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 2:31 am Mickey, I bow to your better(superior) knowledge on Signalling &Pointwork in the Area,maybe IF the loco ex. the loco siding gave it a little push & it then scuttled back to the sidings, who knows or maybe the Train Engine gained its feet &off it went,a thought.... IF ever the plan was to bank Expresses(which would have had a faster passing time @ the"Park"& not taxed the train engine so early in its journey with the Northern Heights still before it) over the years why couldn't the trailing loco simply drop off @ Belle Isle?& reverse on to "Top Shed" for further use or Lay By until called on & not use the "X" sidings after the initial push...

Thanks jj but a number of members on here have greater knowledge of me when it comes to railway signalling.