Temple Mills Help

[03piggs]

Hi All,

As well as working on a list of arrivals and departures for Whitemoor Yard, I'm also doing one for Temple Mills Yard, with associated loco diagrams for each working.

If anyone can help with the Surburban freight diagrams, please can you let me know. Also, I have a couple of services from Upper Holloway that are worked by the LMR, would this have been a Cricklewood or Kentish Town Working?

Thanks for your help

Stu

[Mickey]

I know both places Temple Mills during 1979 and the Upper Holloway area for the last 40 years.

Temple Mills yards on the Eastern region.

With regards to Temple Mills yards I was a secondman (fireman) at Stratford loco during most of 1979 which was a 'stones throw' or two from the Temple Mills yards so it was visited quite regularly by Stratford train crews because Stratford loco had a number of freight diagrams that started and finished in the Temple Mills yards. Two panel type s/boxes dealt with the signalling in the Temple Mills area with one box being named Temple Mills West and being located at the northern end of the Temple Mills yards near to Lea Bridge station and the other box being named Temple Mills East and being located at the southern end of the Temple Mills yards which also controlled Temple Mills East junction and the curve leading around to and from High Meads junction as well as the entrance and exit to Stratford loco sheds and worked with Stratford box on Stratford station. A third mechanical s/box with a lever frame of possibly about 30-35 levers(?) was located in Temple Mills yard it's self and was built in a modern brick and glass design style with a flat concrete roof and was named Manor Yard and was located beyond a road over bridge that spanned all the lines at that location with Manor Yard box being located on the Temple Mills East side of the road over bridge. From vague memory the building that housed Manor Yard box may have also contained ground floor offices and may have been where the yard officials and possibly where the TOPS office was located as well?. Located on other side of the road over bridge was where the shunter's bunks were and further up the yards in the far distance was the large automated hump and control tower that were both a lot further up the yard towards the Temple Mills West box direction. A small hump worked off a lever frame complete with a single semaphore stop signal outside the ground frame building on a straight signal post existed towards the Temple Mills East end of the yard.

Upper Holloway on the London Midland region.

With regards to Upper Holloway I know the area very well since 1981 being a signalman at both Junction Road Junction s/box and also at the current Upper Holloway s/box. Until the late 1980s a small two road oil terminal existed at Upper Holloway on the Down side of the T&H lines (Tottenham & Hampstead lines) and set back from the running lines that processed paraffin oil during the 1980s and possibly during the 1970s as well. A oil train use to run a couple of times a week during the winter months and sporadically during the rest of year between Ripple Lane & Upper Holloway and Upper Holloway & Ripple lane carrying paraffin oil (I can't remember if it brought the paraffin oil from Ripple Lane to Upper Holloway or took the paraffin oil from Upper Holloway back to Ripple Lane?) with the trains during the 1980s usually being worked by a class 47 loco hauling a rake of short wheel based fully fitted oil tanks with no brake van at the rear of the train.

[03piggs]

Thanks Mickey.

Lots of useful information there.

I do apologise, but my original question was based off of 1950s WTTs so I was wondering about that era.

My fault as I should of put that on my original post

Also, if anyone can help with what locos where seen on local stratford workings (or the accual loco diagrams) that would be much appreciated.

Stu

[Mickey]

Yeah I noticed Stu that you are asking about the 1950s area in particular but seeing that you was asking about an area that I knew about back in 1979 and an area that I have known for the last 40 years I thought I would post about my recollections of both areas anyway below is a panoramic view of the southern half of Temple Mills yards looking in a southerly direction towards Temple Mills East Junction (not shown in the photograph) and taken from the aforementioned road over bridge in my previous post, note Manor Yard signal box on the extreme left of the photograph the modern brick building with the flat roof while a vintage GER 0-6-0 heads northwards through Temple Mills on the Down through line with a goods train. This view of Temple Mills looks virtually the same as it did back in 1979-
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view ... P.fbOf4J3e...

[Mickey]

The previous photograph above featured the area around Manor Yard but this smaller photograph shows the northern end of Temple Mills yard featuring a 'toffee apple' Brush type 2 (class 31) arriving with a short loose coupled train of open wagons and a brake van with Temple Mills West box in the distance. Beyond Temple Mills West box just beyond the 'bridge ole' out of sight is Lea Bridge station-
http://walthamstowhistory.com/pictures/pg_02.jpg

[rockinjohn]

Hi Stu/Mickey&all, great photos mickey,couple of comments on past posts&enquires,can we assume that Tufnell Park Goods &Upper Holloway Goods were one &the same or was their Up &Down yards? & just like Stratford(30A) one of them had a BRS depot alongside,the query on locos there @ the time shunting or trip I"m pretty sure a Kentish Town(14B) turn, viewed a 4F there.On my many visits to (14B) the easiest shed in London to bunk?(yes I saw the Clan(is that a video recorder vivian?) there before its GE Clacton's sojurn) to my amazement often found a Stanier tank(3cyl) from (33A) or (33B) on shed, I seem to remember a direct thru Southend service in the 50's not many, maybe just the one a day, kept just to keep the crews familar with the thru route I expect,not 100%relevant but maybe intresting to some,Stu what locos were around the Stratford Area in the '50's ok 350hps/03's (both in BLK or GRN).....J67?J69's on trips/shunting... J15's as mickeys pic shows very common,J17/J19(longer hauls) & quite a few parcel train movements from/ to I know not where,but Southend had a lot of parcel movements?, N7 or L1 hauled, always chimmney first,& of course the regulars to the main Temple Mills yards from the regions(GE&GN) sheds, along with inter regional vistors also(SR&LMR),classes seen which I can list if required later no ###'s if it helps.

[Mickey]

Hi Stu/Mickey&all, great photos mickey,couple of comments on past posts&enquires,can we assume that Tufnell Park Goods &Upper Holloway Goods were one &the same or was their Up &Down yards?

I believe they were two separate yards jj. The T&H line (Tottenham & Hampstead line) runs straight through Upper Holloway from west to east. The smaller north yard was a LMS yard during the grouping (1923-1948) but the much bigger south yard was a LNER yard during the grouping. The site of the former LMS yard I believe became the site of the Upper Holloway oil terminal during the 1970s & 1980s eventually closing around 1987/88 with the former oil terminal site (a brown field site using modern jargon) being built on for residential housing during the 1990s. The former larger LNER yard on the south side of the T&H line closed in 1968 with the former large open area being turned into an industrial estate possibly during the later 1970s but definitely by the start of the 1980s. The modern era large warehouses that occupy the former LNER yard site to the present day were occupied by B.T. for a couple of decades between the 1990s-2010s before vacating the site about 5 years ago anyway the site has been in the local news and national news during the last year due to Ocados delivery service wanting to establish a LARGE warehouse distribution depot on the site to local opposition.

Manor Yard box in Temple Mills yard.

The box had a small number of LNER ground disc signals scattered around outside the box area all of which were 'flood lit' and not oil lit and a few colour light signals on the Goods lines. I happened to go into Manor Yard box briefly one evening when I was a secondman at Stratford loco and from memory I believe it contained a lever frame of around 30-35 levers (I didn't count them I just glanced at the frame) and the floor was hard with polished blue lino laying on it. I don't know if the Goods lines between Temple Mills East box and maybe Temple Mills West box were worked under permissive block or no block regulations?.

[03piggs]

Thanks both for the replies so far.

I think the LNER Depot at Upper Holloway was known as Tuffnell Park, in fact if you look at the list of arrivals for Park Yard, there is a light engine from Tuffnell Park to work a Victoria Docks service. Not 100% sure how the loco got there; have a feeling it was from Goodmayes, but I'd have to check my copies of the WTTs for Section N.

Regarding the services, i wanted just to double check, as im not old enough to have seen steam. I had heard that all freight services to Epping/South Woodford had to be J15s, as these had to be tripcock fitted??
Also, services to New Cross Gate via the ELL had to be worked by J69s as these only ones condenser fitted??
Also, how did these run between Liverpool Street and Temple Mills? Where they top and tailed? Did the loco run round? Or was it the same as the Passinger services, where a loco backed onto the rear of the train after arrival at Liverpool Street?

Stu

[rockinjohn]

Hi Stu, yes some J15's(30A) were trip cocked, remember Ongar/Epping? had a goods yard &I think Woodford also,now the J69's whether on parcels trains to the SR along the ELR would be hauled by a class member to the most eastern of Liverpool St.platforms #1?then another class member would haul the train thru to the S.R.I saw the arr./dep. a few times myself,I never saw an excursion or railway special but photos showed two(2) class members up front on dep.to or from the S.R.but condensing on the locos not seen or heard of?, most apart from the "Thames" tunnel in the open from memory.So further to Mickeys comprehensive reply like your own, was most surprised that the L.N.E.R had "that" yard I assume reached via the Harringay West Curve off the GN.main line & to what purpose other than Coal would it have with KX goods so near?Cattle were accepted for the Market nearby by and driven down the streets this relating to the LMR yard I expect. An afterthought all goods trains on the ELR had dbl linked couplings, not sure about parcel trains, in case of break aways in "that" wonderful wet stinking tunnel.jj

[03piggs]

Thanks rockinjohn!

I'll put them down on my list as worked by those loco types.

Personally I don't know a lot about Upper Holloway and it's depots apart from what I mentioned in my last post. If the GN had a depot there, I'm not certain, especially as it would of had the monopoly because it owned the surrounding lines in the area.
The only thing i do know is that the T&H was a joint line from Tottenham towards St Pancras with the company's involved being the MR, GER and (I think) LT&SR. This would explain why the GER would of had a goods depot there.

Stu

[rockinjohn]

Hi Stu just to clarify, J69's the only class(steam) to my knowledge to go down the "pipe" in latter years, the odd F5 a bit earlier,also in diesel days 82XX/84XX&Brush type2's &I dont think in answer to your question any trains were top &tailed @ any part of the workings, apart from the changeover whilst in Liverpool Street awaiting departure Southbound,although the odd brakevan was in the makeup with the parcel vans (did it actually load here as a starting point?),& did it really start from Temple Mills or where else?the Spitalfields hoist for goods wagon transfers ceased in"55, think the LTPB unhappy about this traffic,although goods trains albeit rare, started in the west side of Liverpool Street, there was a platformless middle road, their was also a sand train that reversed in the "street" brake van ea.end for transit to Harlow late '50's ,It was quite a well used byway, Brighton the main Southern Area destination for excursions, but Hastings featured also, with excursions starting &finishing from Loughton,Chingford,&Cambridge to name a few that went this way,also the odd Horsebox(train) along with Football Supporters trains.jj(some of this information gleaned from "East London Line"By Middleton Press)

[silverfox]

Stu

I spent more time than i csre to remember at Picketts Lock

The majority of stuff that came down from the 'north' went onto the relief lines at that junction Mostly O1/2/3/4 variants along with K3 and K1 and J39

Not much to assist you but it did bring back memories!

[69530]

Hi there Silver Fox whilst you were at Picketts Lock I was afew miles down the line lurking at Northumbeland Park, but my memories differ slightly from yours.
From early 1956 all the heavy freight was hauled by 9F's and WD's (including 90732 Vulcan), very soon the 9f's left and a year or so later the WD's were replaced almost overnight by O1's. I never saw an O2 or O4 on this line although occasionally they could be seen at Hornsey shed.
Also classes J19/20 and J39 could regularly be seen working fom 31a and 31b, plus of course classes K1 and K3.

I hope the above does not cause offence, although I cannot remember what I went into the garage for five minutes ago, I clearly remember that the Northumberland Park up sidings regular shunter was 68579.

I also saw a Tweedmouth K3 once on a quick cycle visit to Picketts Lock after school, do you remember the jelly bogs there ? Also a Kentish Town 14b Fowler 2-6-4T a couple of times on outer suburban duties, presumably borrowed by 30a because of a shortage of locos.

On a rainy Saturday morning at NP instead of being on the footbridge I was using the up platform waiting room and carefully avoiding the grouchy porter/cleaner who always chased us boys off. The crossing gates closed and an L! approched fron the North on a non stop probably from Hertford or Bishops Stortford and I watched it pass from the platform. As the last coach passed I was stunned to see someone clinging to the rear of the last coach, I tried without success to get the attention of the signalman, so I rushed into the booking office where the porter/cleaner was and breathlessly told him what I had seen.

He told me in no uncertain terms to "go forth and multiply" I was about 11 years old at the time.

[rockinjohn]

Hi 69530, intresting comment on the Fowler 2-6-4 tank over on the GN late'57/early '58 we had I think 42328? from memory shedded @ 34D for awhile, it came via Neasden MPD & was around the same time as a BLK5 &Standard 5MT.the tank working outer Surbuban from the "X" &Broad Street peaks @ least,& disgracing itself by landing in a sand drag possibly Brookmans Park?maybe it was on the circuit of GN/GE london area sheds bit like the Clans we have some(scottish) & dont want them(LMR) their yours,never got to Brimsdown area but told locos returning north bound sometimes in 3&4's light engine, with crews&in steam ex.Temple Mills.jj

[silverfox]

69530

IIRC there were quite a few 2-8-0 hauled freights. Without my 1960 combined i had to guess the classes. Yes forgot about the WD and 9F were realtively common along with the ex GE j class tender locos which were the 'everyday stuff!
Your memory of the Tweedmouth K3 brought back one of the two 'was it or wasnt it' spots The second was being told that 60004 went out on a working which i saw from the top of Ally Pally one sunday. If it had been one of the 'street Arabs' the frequented the railing along Station road, i would have doubted it, but this was a woman with her young lad and she was writing down the numbers (but i have always as my wife oft says 'hae ma doots'

The first was as much as a rara avis as your .No less that, i was adjacent to the line and read gthe number as clear as day 61994,and have even check the Yeadons and shedbooks yet no K3 comes close if it was the biggest misread of all time, again no other witnesses. At least i did put a dodgy cop to bed when i finally saw it at the SVR in the 80s lol

However, for those not on Facebook here is a picture of 60109 and 60017 at KX inon 19 Mar 1961.. The interesting loco is the third one!!! The pic is from the FB LNER loco motives appreciation group and is the copyright of smug-mug.com