The LNER Encyclopedia

Hi all,

Does anyone have any internal pictures of New Barnet signal box during the IFS and NX period?

Many thanks
S&T

No internal photographs of the box or of either panels as I never visited the box although I must have passed the box on trains about 500 times between 1968 & 1976. The IFS era from the autumn of 1970 to February 1973 from memory nothing was really seen of the IFS from passing or departing trains especially from a train on the Down slow line except when looking at the box several 'dark shapes' inside the box could be made out but the NX panel era from February 1973 through to 1976 that was different the 'long NX panel' could usually be seen during the time of darkness illuminated for several seconds especially when observing from trains on the Down slow line or when departing the station when looking at the box. The NX panel faced eastwards towards the Up slow line so the signalman had his back towards the Up fast, Down fast & Down slow lines and from memory the panel had a green background but I am not 100% certain about that(?) plus the white route setting lights on the panel could also be seen from a train on the Down slow line especially when departing slowly away from the station and even the red and green signal indications could also be seen on the panel as well.

The area of control of the IFS between 1970-73 was small by todays standards working with Cemetery box to the south (the London end) and 'picking up trains' on the panel at Cemetery and with the Potters Bar 1955 box to the north (the country end). After both New Southgate & Cemetery boxes were both closed in February 1973 the New Barnet panel then picked up trains on the panel on both the Down fast & Down slow lines on the approach to Wood Green tunnel I am guessing(?) and they 'went off the panel' possibly around the Greenwood area?. Later on after the Potters Bar panel was closed the area of control was extended on the Down lines to around the Hawkshead area. On the Up lines when working with Potters Bar 1955 box New Barnet probably 'picked up trains' on the panel on both the Up fast & Up slow lines on the approach to Potters Bar tunnel and they 'went off the panel' probably just beyond Oakleigh Park station while Cemetery box was still open. Later on after Potters Bar panel was closed I am guessing New Barnet 'picked up trains' when they appeared on the panel around the Redhall area south of Hatfield and south of New Barnet the Up lines area of control was extended to New Southgate after both Cemetery & New Southgate boxes were closed in February 1973 (I can't remember if Wood Green Up Box No.2 took over control of the Up fast & Up slow from just south of Oakleigh Park station after both Cemetery & New Southgate boxes closed in February 1973?).

I have nothing written down it's all remembered from nowadays a faded memory of nearly 50 years ago but around April 1974 until September 1976 New Barnet box fringed to the north with the Welwyn Garden City box which also had a NX panel before both boxes were closed in 1976.

I presume the New Barnet NX panel eventually found it's way into the New Barnet relay room located from memory on the Down side of the running lines at the south end of the station.

Thanks for the reply Mickey. That all makes sense and pretty much aligns with my thoughts and information / timelines for NX migrations I have.
Yes....I think the NX panel ended up in the end of the Barnet relay room (like most did I think).
I remember PB when the signal box glass top was still in place.....although it was empty by then. I recall the signal panel diagram dumped in the relay room below. Eventually, the glass top was removed as well.
I have pictures of WGC NX panel in the signal box....and Gordon Hill I think....but not any others.

Cheers
S&T

I was at Welwyn Garden City box as a 'box lad' before and after the NX panel was installed and commissioned in September 1973 and for about 6 months after it had been commissioned. Around the time I was leaving the box in March 1974 (the box lad position was abolished) it was just prior to Hatfield No.2s small NX panel being decommissioned and New Barnet fringing with the WGC NX panel. Somewhere on the 'back threads' on this forum on the 'WGC box circa 1973 thread' are some pictures posted of the WGC NX panel after it had been relocated into the WGC relay room.'

As previously posted several times on here before in the past I went cleaning at the 1955 Potters Bar box around the summer of 1973 on 3 Sundays maybe around May-June I can't remember the exact dates although the earlier Potters Bar panel had gone by that time and a small NX panel had replaced it which no doubt survives somewhere to this day. I can't remember if Potters Bar was working with Hatfield No.1 or with the small NX panel in Hatfield No.2 at the time when I was doing my Sunday cleaning job at Potters Bar?.

'Somewhere' I do have an interior slide of Barnet North box in its IFS period S&T, but it was so under-exposed that one really needed to have been there in person in some time in order to make out what's in the image.

However, I wonder if the (hopefully, successfully) attached images of my (slightly tidied) 50 year-old hand drawn details of the time are of any interest.
As you may gather, the compactness of the new installation in the formerly 75-lever-framed structure left rather 'wide open spaces' at each end; the frame's hole having been completely boarded over.
The two rectangles labelled "Describers" were the large, black, 'ILC?' bell-code indicating, twin circular cathode ray tubes per display/berth, units by STC installed in connection with the 1959-completed Greenwood - Potters Bar quadrupling; repositioned from the block shelf to be beside the signalman at the IFS panel.

Sorry about the vertical brown stripes across the IFS signalling panel sketch; they're just the effect of the ageing sticky tape of the time on the back, used to join the pieces of paper.

Mickey wrote: ↑Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:55 pm " .... Later on after Potters Bar panel was closed I am guessing New Barnet 'picked up trains' when they appeared on the panel around the Redhall area south of Hatfield and south of New Barnet the Up lines area of control was extended to New Southgate after both Cemetery & New Southgate boxes were closed in February 1973 (I can't remember if Wood Green Up Box No.2 took over control of the Up fast & Up slow from just south of Oakleigh Park station after both Cemetery & New Southgate boxes closed in February 1973?). .... "

For the Up lines, your second version is correct Mickey.
New Barnet still 'lost' the Up trains after Oakleigh Park, with Wood Green No.2 taking them over from there, having been given a small IFS panel on the Block shelf to control the new signalling through Cemetery and New Southgate.

Mickey wrote: ↑Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:55 pm " .... around April 1974 until September 1976 New Barnet box fringed to the north with the Welwyn Garden City box which also had a NX panel before both boxes were closed in 1976. .... "

[ All following dates from my copy of the SRS Box Register ]
As Potters Bar closed as an 'everyday' box around 25/03/73***, taken over by New Barnet, NB seems to have worked to Hatfield No.1 until 19/05/73, then to Hatfield panel (former No.2 box) until 03/03/74, when Welwyn GC took over Hatfield.

(***The new Nov.1972 panel was, as usual, retained for 'emergency' local control, but in this case, remained in the first floor operating room for quite some time before being moved to the Relay Room prior to removal of the building's first floor: Someone told me that at some time(s) it was unpleasant to go upstairs while the panel stayed there owing to infestation by flies.)

Very interesting posts from you Stevie regarding New Barnet North Box and especially regarding those block instruments they had for working Absolute block with primarily Cemetery or occasionally with New Southgate or for that matter with both Wood Green Up Box No.2 on the Up lines & Wood Green No.1 box on the Down lines if both Cemetery & New Southgate boxes had both 'switched out' of the circuit anyway I presume they could have retained the normal GNR 3-position wooden block Instruments at the box if they so desired and I mean if management desired and not the signalmen at the box. Did New Barnet North Box have GNR block instruments in 1970 at the time when both Oakleigh Park & New Barnet South Box were closed or had they been replaced by standard B.R. block instruments by then?.

When Upper Holloway box opened in November 1985 replacing two old Midland Railway boxes at both Upper Holloway & Junction Road Junction on the Gospel Oak-Barking line a standard B.R. 3-position block instrument was provided at the new box which had a horrible 'flat' bell tone rather than a nice crisp 'ding" bell tone primarily for working with Harringay Park Junction box although Harringay could 'switch out' and then the Absolute block section was extended to & from South Tottenham box anyway I was asked by a S&T tech/installer during the changeover weekend when I was on duty at Upper Holloway box if I wanted the block instrument mounted on a low down table next to the NX panel and I said to him "No I would rather it remain on top of the panel" and that's where it remained until Harringay Park Junction box was closed in November 2009. The block instruments at Willesden High Level box on the North London line for working Absolute block with both Acton Wells & Mitre Bridge boxes were both mounted on a low table next to that NX panel I seem to recall?.

A little memory regarding New Barnet North Box was when John Saggers a regular signalman at the box and also a NUR union rep at the time showed up one day at Welwyn Garden City box to speak with Cecil White a regular signalman at WGC and a LDC man and during the course of their conversations John mentioned to Cecil that 'the powers that be' wanted to take the single needle telegraph instrument(s) out of New Barnet North Box and that John wanted to retain the s/n instrument(s). This conversation must happened in the early new year of 1974 as I shortly after left WGC box in March of 1974.

New Barnet North's three Block Instruments were of the twin dial Tyer Co.'s 'black box' type Mickey (that sort whose commutator was turned through 360 degrees during the signalling of a train).
But as the working with Potters Bar was Track Circuit Block, the Block Insts. for the other way, unlike the twin dial instruments in nearly all the main line boxes' south of Welwyn Garden City, were for both directions - bottom dial (plus bell key and bell fixed to the back), for the respective Down road, the top dial (and a separate GN bell to the side) for the equivalent Up road; with the Block for the Goods roads being a Permissive version.

Thanks for the info and diagrams for Barnet IFS/NX Stevie...I appreciate you taking the time to do that.
Thanks also Mickey.
All information is helpful in piecing the whole Stageworks upgrade together.
S&T

Below supposedly a photograph of possibly the Interior of a GN box with a NX panel on the extreme left of the photograph found amongst a group of photographs supposedly taken around Wood Green but that doesn't mean to say all the photographs are from that area including the one below?.

http://www.samhallas.co.uk/railway/sign ... _green.jpg

Mickey wrote: ↑Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:16 am Below supposedly a photograph of possibly the Interior of a GN box with a NX panel on the extreme left of the photograph found amongst a group of photographs supposedly taken around Wood Green but that doesn't mean to say all the photographs are from that area including the one below?.

http://www.samhallas.co.uk/railway/sign ... _green.jpg

Excellent stuff....thanks Mickey

The telephone concentrator featured in the photograph above reminds me of the telephone concentrator that were installed at Welwyn Garden City box along with the commissioning of the NX panel in September 1973 that superseded the old 'circuit telephone' circuit that was in use at the box until that time. Nowadays nearly 50 years on the set up shown in the photograph with the handset and dial along with those 'telephone cards' that slid into the telephone concentrator shown in the photograph are considered 'antiquated' by todays modern standards although they were still in use quite extensively in signal boxes into the 1980s & 1990s.

At Welwyn Garden City box from a faded memory of nearly 50 years later I think the old telephone circuit phone included Hatfield no.1 no.2 & no.3 along with Welwyn North, Woolmer Green & Knebworth boxes.

Mickey wrote: ↑Sat Mar 14, 2020 8:00 am The telephones featured in the photograph above reminds me of the telephones that were installed at Welwyn Garden City box along with the commissioning of the NX panel in September 1973 that superseded the old 'circuit telephone' circuit that was in use at the box until that time. Nowadays nearly 50 years on the set up shown in the photograph with the handset and dial along with those 'telephone cards' that slid into the telephone concentrator shown in the photograph are considered 'antiquated' by todays modern standards although they were still in use quite extensively in signal boxes into the 1980s & 1990s.

Looks like the BR Eastern Region Universal Concentrator telephone system to me. I used to look after those in the 80s in various places between KX and Hitchin. In fact....not much ever seamed to go wrong with them if I recall correctly. Pretty robust equipment.

S&T

S&T wrote: ↑Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:20 am Looks like the BR Eastern Region Universal Concentrator telephone system to me. I used to look after those in the 80s in various places between KX and Hitchin. In fact....not much ever seamed to go wrong with them if I recall correctly. Pretty robust equipment.

I edited my post S&T after you quoted me but no problem.

Yeah they also installed those type of telephone concentrators with the 'slide in cards' in boxes on the London Midland Region of B.R. as well between the 1970s-1990s because I have a personal photograph of myself in a LMR signal box featuring that type of telephone concentrator located above the high desk with the train register book laying on it in the photograph as well.

Around 1986/87 they had a bit of a shake up with the S&T department I recall where the S was separated from the T with the T dealing exclusively with the 'telecoms' side of the railway while the S dealt with lineside signals & points and internal signal box equipment because until then if their was a problem with a telephone in a signal box you would just call the S&T and a S&T linesman or tech would come out to the box and hopefully fix the problem so after the telecoms part was separated from the rest of the S&T a qualified telecoms technician would respond to any telephone faults and not some everyday S&T linesman. I recall a glossy handout that appeared in the box at that time explaining the reason for the change and why the S&T had been separated into two distinct organisations.

S&T wrote: ↑Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:20 am

Mickey wrote: ↑Sat Mar 14, 2020 8:00 am The telephones featured in the photograph above reminds me of the telephones that were installed at Welwyn Garden City box along with the commissioning of the NX panel in September 1973 that superseded the old 'circuit telephone' circuit that was in use at the box until that time. Nowadays nearly 50 years on the set up shown in the photograph with the handset and dial along with those 'telephone cards' that slid into the telephone concentrator shown in the photograph are considered 'antiquated' by todays modern standards although they were still in use quite extensively in signal boxes into the 1980s & 1990s.

Looks like the BR Eastern Region Universal Concentrator telephone system to me. I used to look after those in the 80s in various places between KX and Hitchin. In fact....not much ever seamed to go wrong with them if I recall correctly. Pretty robust equipment.

S&T

I'm in the process of installing one right now..

https://www.flickr.com/photos/32297024@N08/49644427323/

I haven't got a proper extended card so i'm making my own.