The LNER Encyclopedia

In November 1951, the shunter did leave the sidings, the haul Father Christmas on the Lollipop Express, from Horns sidings, on the Luton Branch (now the site of Campus West), into Platform 1 at Welwyn Garden City. In most photographs number 1 is pictured in the Nabisco sidings cab south, however, in the photograph of the train arriving at platform 1, the loco is nose end first (cab north). As there were no turning facilities at WGC, and the nearest depot was Hatfield (34C), which did not have a turntable, how was number 1 turned?,possibly in the Nabisco workshops? Does anybody have any thoughts? ajb200

The only places that a loco could be turned either 20 miles south of WGC was Hornsey (did that shed had have a turntable?) or Top shed or maybe the 'Dalston triangle' on the North London railway between Western Junction-Dalston Junction station-Eastern Junction?. North of WGC did Hitchin shed have a turntable?.

Mickey

Hi Mickey, yes Hitchin did have a turntable, but I've spoken to a few people, most likely explanation is that the shunter was turned by crane on-site. Given that number 1 was not a heavy loco, this would not have been difficult. Nabisco probably had a mobile crane in house, if not they certainly had overhead equipment in the lorry repair bay adjacent to the siding. The loco repair shed was incorporated into the repair bay.

ajb200 wrote:Hi Mickey, yes Hitchin did have a turntable, but I've spoken to a few people, most likely explanation is that the shunter was turned by crane on-site. Given that number 1 was not a heavy loco, this would not have been difficult. Nabisco probably had a mobile crane in house, if not they certainly had overhead equipment in the lorry repair bay adjacent to the siding. The loco repair shed was incorporated into the repair bay.

That also crossed my mind ajb200 that the loco was 'turned on site' with the aid of a crane because it would have probably taken virtually all day for it to have travelled all the way up to Dalston and back in north London and then turned via the 'Dalston triangle' on the North London Railway or even going into Top shed or Hornsey to turn as well maybe?.

Mickey

Mickey wrote:The only places that a loco could be turned either 20 miles south of WGC was Hornsey (did that shed had have a turntable?) or Top shed or maybe the 'Dalston triangle' on the North London railway between Western Junction-Dalston Junction station-Eastern Junction?. North of WGC did Hitchin shed have a turntable?.

Mickey

For the record, Hornsey had a turntable as well, sited between the shed and running lines. It did, after all, have a few tender locos and no doubt had its share of visitors.

Kudu

kudu wrote:

Mickey wrote:The only places that a loco could be turned either 20 miles south of WGC was Hornsey (did that shed had have a turntable?) or Top shed or maybe the 'Dalston triangle' on the North London railway between Western Junction-Dalston Junction station-Eastern Junction?. North of WGC did Hitchin shed have a turntable?.[/i]

For the record, Hornsey had a turntable as well, sited between the shed and running lines. It did, after all, have a few tender locos and no doubt had its share of visitors.

I thought that it probably did kudu but I wasn't totally sure and 'sods law' dictates that if I had said it did someone would have said that it didn't you can't ever win.

Come to think of it now that you said where the turntable was situated I believe I have seen a picture of it before in the past.

Mickey

kudu wrote:

Mickey wrote:The only places that a loco could be turned either 20 miles south of WGC was Hornsey (did that shed had have a turntable?) or Top shed or maybe the 'Dalston triangle' on the North London railway between Western Junction-Dalston Junction station-Eastern Junction?. North of WGC did Hitchin shed have a turntable?.

Mickey

For the record, Hornsey had a turntable as well, sited between the shed and running lines. It did, after all, have a few tender locos and no doubt had its share of visitors.

Kudu

Correct, Hornsey did indeed have a turntable long enough to cater for A1 Pacifics in their early days as they had to go there to be turned as the then Kings Cross one wasn't long enough.

Personally, I think there is no way a private shunting loco would have travelled anywhere on the main line to be turned. The complications of getting a permit over BR metals and a path to potter along without interrupting traffic, and the provision of a conductor-driver would push the idea beyond practicality.

I think it is likely that at some point the locomotive was either dreailed or removed from the track for heavy repairs and replaced the other way round simply because that happened to be the easiest way to do it.

John

thesignalman wrote:Personally, I think there is no way a private shunting loco would have travelled anywhere on the main line to be turned. The complications of getting a permit over BR metals and a path to potter along without interrupting traffic, and the provision of a conductor-driver would push the idea beyond practicality.

Yes your right John private locos weren't usually allowed on B.R. metals and I believe it may have also been stated as such in the old 1950s black rule book and the red 'bendy' British Rail 1970s rule book or in the General Appendix?.

"It's been a long time since i've read the rule book lol ha ha ha..."

Mickey

Hi all
Just a thought ,but how extensive was the system,could it include a triangle, this would enable turning.

52H

52H wrote:Just a thought ,but how extensive was the system,could it include a triangle, this would enable turning.

The Nabisco's Shredded Wheat factory sidings were basically 3 straight siding roads situated along side the factory that converged into a long single road head shunt of a couple of hundred yards in length ending at a set of stops. About 50 yards beyond where the 3 sidings roads converged there was a single set of hand worked points that took a short single line curve around towards the north end of WGC yard and the old Hertford branch.

Mickey

Mickey wrote:

thesignalman wrote:Personally, I think there is no way a private shunting loco would have travelled anywhere on the main line to be turned. The complications of getting a permit over BR metals and a path to potter along without interrupting traffic, and the provision of a conductor-driver would push the idea beyond practicality.

Yes your right John private locos weren't usually allowed on B.R. metals and I believe it may have also been stated as such in the old 1950s black rule book and the red 'bendy' British Rail 1970s rule book or in the General Appendix?.

"It's been a long time since i've read the rule book lol ha ha ha..."

Mickey

As a comment on the rule precuding the use of private locomotives running on BR, at some time in the early/mid 60's The locomotive 'Little Barford' (either a Barclay or RSH) ran on the up slow from Little Barford power station (St Neots) to Sandy, then through the transfer sidings to access the Cambridge to Oxford line, then took the Ox-Cam to Goldington Power station which was just East of Bedford, This was carried out under it's own power.

Dave S wrote:As a comment on the rule precuding the use of private locomotives running on BR, at some time in the early/mid 60's The locomotive 'Little Barford' (either a Barclay or RSH) ran on the up slow from Little Barford power station (St Neots) to Sandy, then through the transfer sidings to access the Cambridge to Oxford line, then took the Ox-Cam to Goldington Power station which was just East of Bedford, This was carried out under it's own power.

I didn't say it couldn't be done, I simply said the concept of running the Nabisco engine somewhere to turn wasn't practical given the complications and cost involved. If they wanted to do it (and I can't think of a reason to do so) a mobile crane would probably be the sensible way.

I still think it is more likely the turning was simply a result of some other happening, such as off-track repairs or derailment.

John

Mickey wrote:

thesignalman wrote:Personally, I think there is no way a private shunting loco would have travelled anywhere on the main line to be turned. The complications of getting a permit over BR metals and a path to potter along without interrupting traffic, and the provision of a conductor-driver would push the idea beyond practicality.

Yes your right John private locos weren't usually allowed on B.R. metals and I believe it may have also been stated as such in the old 1950s black rule book and the red 'bendy' British Rail 1970s rule book or in the General Appendix?.

"It's been a long time since i've read the rule book lol ha ha ha..."

Mickey

Notwithstanding the later post about a private loco running from Barford to Goldington, I'd agree about private loco running being complicated to officially permit, and generally disliked by BR.

At Colthrop, on the Western between Midgham and Thatcham (Okay, the WR may have been extra picky about such things), there was an 0-4-0 private shunter (a Fowler I think) which worked the Reed Board Mills Co.'s sidings on both sides of the main line, and it was allowed to shunt across for the purpose of transiting, or transferring vehicles, between their Down and Up sidings.

Although the 0-4-0 would always come to a stand somewhere on the up Main within the Clearing Point during such moves, as to the Down road, it only ever crossed over, or occasionally could've crossed to and along beyond the CP of, that line (to enter the west end of the Down sdgs.), yet the 'footnotes' (Box Special Instructions) required 'Blocking Back Inside' (inside the Home Signal; bell signal 2-4) to have been applied on both roads for the duration of any such moves.