London Midland & Scottish Railway.

[coachmann]

As for Stanier's origins, I don't think they were Crewe or Derby. Or Doncaster, come to that.

It's not the origins and ideas that count so much as what you do with them. There's no disputing the GWR had very good ideas that were picked up (eventually) by other companies, but the GW ideas bank was bankrupt after Churchward. It took Gresley and Stanier to take developments further culminating in the final LMS designs under Ivatt, and which paved the way for many of the BR standard designs.

And I'm nuitral....

[S.A.C. Martin]

Surely no-one can deny that the A3s were magnificent machines in appearance and performance, and arrived years before the Duchesses.

But just a minute. Wasn't the Gresley Pacific eclipsed by Pendennis Castle until it was modified to incorporate some of Churchward's ideas? And can someone remind where Holcroft was working when he sorted out the conjugated valve gear for Gresley? As for Stanier's origins, I don't think they were Crewe or Derby. Or Doncaster, come to that.

All true - undeniable. However...

The GWR from the outset had an advantage over the other railways - better coal, and a better graded railway for its expresses. The castles/kings did not have to use the poorer and less calorific coal that befell the Gresley Pacifics - hence the wide fireboxes to some degree, as opposed the much narrower swindon design.

The situation for all these railways - GWR, SR, LNER and LMS - were significantly different from each other in one way or another, hence their different developments. Yes, GWR men did some great things on other railways - in a similar vein, what Bulleid learned from Gresley in terms of "breaking the mould" was in turn to be used on the Southern Railway - and Stanier's designs for the LMS, undeniably Swindon in basic form, were further transformed from what could have been.

I don't think any comparison of the railways should be attempted at all - the differences in the traffic they carried, and how much, the routes they took, and the generally dismissive nature of consecutive governments to the railway companies, up until nationalisation, means that overall, any such comparison would be unfair.

Add to that - the wonder that is hindsight!

[kudu]

As for Stanier's origins, I don't think they were Crewe or Derby. Or Doncaster, come to that.

It's not the origins and ideas that count so much as what you do with them. There's no disputing the GWR had very good ideas that were picked up (eventually) by other companies, but the GW ideas bank was bankrupt after Churchward.

Just what I was trying to say.

Kudu

[Steamboat Bill]

Good afternoon all from a "rookie".

I'm neutral here too, as befits someone born in 1939 in Wimbledon (SR territory), evacuated to North Shields in 1941 and Swindon in 1942, to return to Wimbledon in 1946. I was always fascinated by both LMS and LNER engines, because - because what? I don't really know; but my father was an enthusiast of the Norris collection (Gauge 1 LNWR), and used to work as one of the "3 M's", who contributed much to that collection's development.

That led, I suppose, to my always having a leaning to the "other side of London", and when I was old enough to travel long distances on my own, it was almost always Kings Cross or Euston for which I would head. Performance was the attraction, and the noise of steam engines hard at work. Many years later, when steam was (almost) on its last legs, I had (and took) the chance to join the footplate staff. Having taken the step, I always wished I had taken it earlier; I really don't remember why I chose Crewe; I was probably hoping for the longest possible firing career - at that time, the Bournemouth electrification was in the air, so cut out the Southern, and EE4's and the deltics had already displaced steam from "the Cross", while the "Gone With Relief" wasn't my cup of tea at all.

At all events, I moved from Crewe to take promotion to fireman at Carnforth, and although I missed the Duchesses, I had three years of heaven on the footplate. But this was all "LMS".

Anyway, after August '68 brought the curtain down on main-line steam, I transferred first to Kings Cross, to a second-man position for three months, then I escaped to the offices, since there was no real work for me to do on the footplate. Not too sure if any of this makes sense, but there it is, FWIW....

[lead_plug]

Hi Micky,
Thanks for the KTJ/CRJ photographs, they certainly fill a long felt want.
Nice to see that lever frame again, and the instrument shelf which used to carry two old North London Railway block instruments, NLR and LNWR train describers, and two block instruments of either LNWR or LMS origin.
As one of the slaves, in my book the greatest improvement must be the floor covering and the mop-bucket -such modernity!!!
On Friday mornings a big bucket of water would be put on the gas-ring and as soon as the morning rush had subsided the boy had to get down on knees and scrub the floorboards.
The box seemed to double in length from floor level. The signalman helped by listing all the train movements/times for us to enter in the book afterwards.
The first time I had this filthy job I got into trouble because the signalman didn't warn me to break off and phone in passing freights to Willesden Control and the Camden Regulator. When I finally phoned the list over, the Controller got quite upset! Never looked forward to the day shift after that.

[Mickey]

Hardly a 'rookie' Bill you done your turn on the shovel at a time when steam was on the way out on the London Midland region which was and still is a fascinating period of the last days of steam for me and many other's. You must have fired Black 5s, 8Fs & Britannias some of my favourite ex LMS & BR standard designs. Your like many other fella's that when steam finished in '68 wasn't interested in staying on and would rather 'jack the job in' which from an observer's point of view one has to admire. Micky GNR/L.N.E.R.

[Mickey]

I am glad you like the pictures lead-plug the two black & white interior views i have stated that they are from the early '80s well i think they were actually taken in the mid '70s around the time when Hampstead Road Junction s/box closed. Yes i would say that when you was there the block instruments would have either been North London railway or L.N.W.R. origin also you have some good memories as well. The old box is closing sometime around Christmas time this year. Anyway i am glad that you like the pictures. Micky

[Mickey]

Does anyone over the age of about 53 (my age) remember seeing a tv programme on BBC telly back in 1968 which may have been a forerunner of 'Jim i'll fix it' (popular early/mid '70s tv programme) when a young kid of about 10 years old (or younger?) wanted to ride on a steam train and wanted Jimmy Saville to fix it for him. Anyway it must have been several months before the end of steam in the north west on the London Midand region because they filmed the young kid talking to the driver who gave him a oil can and showed him where to oil up around the loco. Next the young kid and the driver climb up onto the footplate (i think the locomotive was a 8F?) and set off. There was then shots on the footplate of the loco at speed with the driver, fireman who was firing away and the young kid to the accompaniment of the song of 'I'm a train i'm a train i'm a train i'm a train i'm train i'm a choo choo train yeah...!' Micky