Yes, on the one occasion I witnessed the fish re-marhalling at the Vic', was amazed at the apparent complexity. An A5 'station pilot' did the honours and culminated with the guards van being relocated to place a further three vans behind it - for the next drop off.
The initial four detached Nottingham vans were firstly placed into the Grantham bay for offloading, which had almost been completed before the rested B1 set off southward with its lighter load. Regret not waiting to see where the empty Nottingham batch were taken...Colwick or Wilford, presumably??? The aroma was such that their removal had to be a priority
Remember being told by a porter that, more usually, the vans were unloaded overnight at Colwick and the content was then conveyed by road in the early hours to Sneinton Fish Market.
Think that Colwick was the most likely destination - certainly after the yard at Queens' Walk was scaled down in the mid 50s. Can you remember the name of the main fish merchant at Sneinton market? Jesse Robinson springs to mind.
Just had a look at the Colin Walker 'Twilight' books on the Great Central. Several interesting pictures of The Fish. 70041 appropriately on 26.8.63 taking water and changing crews at Leicester Central at 8.20pm.
A K3 returning fish empties through Carrington on the afternoon of 26.3.59.
And a Hall heading south out of Leicester after an engine change at 6.05 pm.
Just found more in 'Great Central From the Footplate' where Frank Stratford, a former Leicester GC driver, talks about The Fish. In ER days it would run through to Banbury (usually behind a K3) without an crew change. It was only when the Brits arrived that a Leicester crew took over. For a while it was routed via Calvert where it then reversed onto the Bletchley-Oxford line with the Leicester crew taking it as far as Oxford!
He also mentions the Swindon fish - originally two trains with the two engines returning light coupled together. Years later it was made into one train at Leicester with the brake van inside the vans to be dropped off at Banbury, Oxford and Marston.
"...In some cases the trains from Grimsby and Hull were integrated. The Grimsby-Whitland and the Hull-Plymouth exchanged portions at Marston Sidings, Oxford, for Devon/Cornwall and for South Wales. If this traffic was not in the hands of the consignees early next morning there was the devil to pay"
"...Rail movement held up well until the fifties, when road hauliers began to eat selectively into the short and middle distance traffic...wet fish movement began an insidious decline in favour of frozen packs and prepared meals. Finally, in the Beeching era, the fish traffic was adjudged uneconomic; excessive handling costs, too many vans in use, poor wagon loadability, empty return haulage. It was not left to flounder like a cod on a trawler deck, but killed off at a stroke..." LNER 150, Whitehouse & St John Thomas, D&C, 1989.
I see you've been posting on another site about The Fish, Rob! Tell us more of the rare B1 that was parked outside Colwick because everyone wanted to cop it!
"...The Grimsby-Whitland 'fast fish' ran much earlier in the 50's. IIRC, 16.30 at Bulwell Common. Then hauled by Doncaster B1's...often double-headed...Ourebi, Ralph Assheton, Lord Burghley, Fitzherbert Wright, A. Harold Bibby et al..."
"...Rocking horse droppings on the day that Botanic Gardens's William Henton Carver turned up on the fish. Conked out at Nottingham Vic', not used to such hard work! The great rarity brought so many gricers to Colwick (where it awaited repair) that the shed authorities parked it outside in clear view, to deter the dozens of 'bunkers'!..."
Picked up a copy of 'Railways North from Nottingham' by Michael Castledine today. P76 70037 on 'The Fish' at Bagthorpe Junction dated 8.8.63, time 7.30 pm. Caption includes a fascinating tale of a broken coupling and a little 'wrong road' working to clear up the problem. Plus, interestingly on P77, Rob, 61215 hauling a train of flat wagons through Bagthorpe on 11.4.64 - rocking horse droppings becoming more familiar eh?
Thanks for that info...I've ordered the book on your 'taster'...
If its crap, "I'll see you in court!"
Actually, 61215 was an Ardsley loco by then and, following the 'Midlanisation', I've seen a pic of it heading north (devoid of nameplates) from Derby Midland to Sheffield, also in '64...
strang steel wrote:Yes Robert, but unless I can find a WTT from the early 1960s I think I will struggle to answer a question that I have had since those times.
I lived between Sleaford and Boston during the 60s, and for a few years there was a westbound fish train just after 7pm. The loco may have been a K3 at first, but for much of the time it was a B1. The train was going at a fair old speed on most days. As kids we used to count the number of wagons of goods trains, but this one was travelling so fast that once we had got beyond twelve it became almost impossible to count, as the time it took to say thirteen was slower than it took for each wagon to pass by.
I dont know what the speed limit was for 4-wheeled vans, but I think the line speed limit was 60mph, and I would not be surprised if the train was getting close to that at times. The guards van was never at the end of the train, which some folk say was for easy detachment of wagons en route, but others reckon it was to make the guards journey more comfortable, as his van would not hunt quite so much when marshalled between other wagons.
My problem is the destination of the train. London bound fish trains went via Spalding, East Midlands bound ones via Lincoln and either Newark or the LDEC. I cannot think of an obvious destination that would necessitate taking the Sleaford route from Boston. My only conclusion is that it was diverted that way for a few years to ease the pressure on the Lincoln area until the improvements were made around the Pelham Street crossing.
John
After almost 50 years I have an early 1960s WTT that answers my own question. The service was not a fish, because it class 4 and did not originate at Grimsby. I presume that it must have conveyed all manner of perishables.
It was in fact 4N00, the 1830 Boston to York Dringhouses, and proves all my guesses wrong as it ran via Sleaford E, W and N junctions then Lincoln and Gainsborough to the ECML at Doncaster.
John - just wondered whether your early 1960s WTT sheds any light on my earlier query on how the Grimsby-Whitland fish train returned back to Grimsby. The Brit took the train as far as Woodford and then presumably returned to Grimsby with the empties. Any information in your early 1960s WTT about the the route and timing of the return journey? Presumably it was the reverse route - but maybe on the return journey it took a different route. On the south-bound journey there was a crew change at Pyewipe Junction just outside Lincoln, any indication that there was a similar crew change on the return journey? If so, it must have been pretty early in the morning.
There seem to be a number of class 4 services by which the empties must have returned. The most likely candidate from the west is 4E00, the 0030 from Woodford.
That service is something of a mystery train because it only appears at Wrawby Junc thence to Grimsby, and I cant find it anywhere else on the tables that I have looked at. It does not appear on the GN&GE through Lincoln Central, nor on the ex-Midland through St Marks and Newark.
I suspect that it went via the LDEC but by that time the route was not included in the Lincoln area, and may well have come under the LMR by then.
I presume that empties were tripped back from yard to yard in a rather more haphazard way than the full vans in the other direction. There were also overnight class 4 services from Kings Cross, Manchester and New England which were in the general direction of the majority of the evening's fish trains.
Just belatedly joining in this thread. Whilst I can't add anything hugely original to this discussion, I have various WTTs for the Lincoln area in the 50s/60s. There were very few dedicated fish empties services on the ER - the loaded trains were the priority. The empties were worked back as they became available and two trains from Woodford brought empties back to Grimsby/New Clee. In 1964: 4E00 0120 Wdfd-Gy Dks; 5E01 Wdfd-N Clee. As for routing via Lincoln Pyewipe, this was always a shorter route than via Waleswood Curve, but in the 50s trying to squeeze a fast fish train over the LDEC and the Mansfield Railway amongst all the slow-moving coal empties would have been a nightmare. By 1962, many of the ER coal trains were in the hands of Brush diesels, and the traffic was moving faster, so a fast fish could run to time.
Whitland, Pembrokeshire, was the junction for Pembroke Dk, Milford Haven and Fishguard, and had a small yard. In the early 60s Milford still generated eastbound fish traffic, so it may be that 3V11, the 4.30 Grimsby-Whitland, was used to deliver fish empties!
