Lincoln's Boat Train

[lincolnian]

I've just checked available trains and there's now no apparent direct connection from Harwich to Glasgow, the minimum number of changes required being 3 so, presumably, "The European" is no longer either.

But we have EuroStar now, so the Continent is not as cut off as it once was.......

... and that's a good thing??!! How many years till Eurostar calls at Lincoln, I wonder?

[Bill Bedford]

But we have EuroStar now, so the Continent is not as cut off as it once was.......

... and that's a good thing??!! How many years till Eurostar calls at Lincoln, I wonder?

How many Lincolnians caught the train for a holiday across the Channel?

[lincolnian]

But we have EuroStar now, so the Continent is not as cut off as it once was.......

... and that's a good thing??!! How many years till Eurostar calls at Lincoln, I wonder?

How many Lincolnians caught the train for a holiday across the Channel?

Probably fewer than would catch Eurostar if it called in, given half a chance.

[robertcwp]

FWIW, I think the photo of a Brit heading the Boat Train in 1958 is incorrectly dated: in 1958 all the ER Brits were still at Stratford and I think it highly unlkely (although not impossible) that one would have been scheduled on the Boat Train.

The full caption is pretty specific and refers to Stratford Diagram 6 starting at Goodmayes yard at 2.55 am with a 5.02 am arrival at Parkeston. After servicing, departure from Parkeston was at 8.0 am arriving at Sheffield at 12.52 pm. The 7P went to Darnall for servicing before departing Sheffield at 3.30 pm and arriving at Harwich at 8.53 pm. Departure from Parkeston was at 11.40 pm with arrival at London Spitalfields at 2.34 am.

Page 56 of 'The Eastern Since 1948' by G Freeman Allen describes the 1958 changes to Britannia workings as the first diesels came to the GE. This includes the following commment:

"The historic ' North Country Continental' through working from East Anglia to Yorkshire also became a 'Britannia' duty in the course of a Stratford roster covering night freights from London to Parkeston Quay and back and between each of these legs haulage of the boat train from Harwich to Sheffield Victoria and back."

Thus GFA suggests a Stratford engine was used and that this commenced in 1958, so the caption could be accurate.

Another source of evidence would be the dates when 70009 gained the post-1956 emblem on its tender and lost the smoke deflector handrails.

[robertcwp]

In 1977 it was still running with vacuum braked and steam heated stock comprising of..
SK(8)
TSO
CK(4+3)
BSK(4)
BSK(4)(BRAKE COMPS ADJACENT)
RB(KITCHEN END TRAILING)
TSO
FK(7)
SK(8)

with a note, Reverse formation between Sheffield and Manchester..

The above formation matches with the 1976-7 ER Cross-Country workings book. Curiously, the 1977-8 LMR carriage workings list a different formation, but as the train was ER stock, perhaps they were less focused on getting it right? The LMR book lists the 15.15 Manchester (P) to Parkeston (reverses at Sheffield) as:

BG(NAV)
CK
RB (ex-LNER vehicle)
FK
4 TSO
BSO

Balance 07.28 from Parkeston.

[lincolnian]

Being a Selby(Yorks) lad I'm chuffed to bits to find out after all these years that there was a Sandringham class loco named after the non-existant Selby Hall!!!
Keep up the good work

50C

Sorry to disillusion you, but it's actually "Serlby Hall" ... and unfortunately there's not a picture of it in the edition of "Titled Trains of Great Britain" that I've acquired!
Paul M.

[robertcwp]

In 1977 it was still running with vacuum braked and steam heated stock comprising of..
SK(8)
TSO
CK(4+3)
BSK(4)
BSK(4)(BRAKE COMPS ADJACENT)
RB(KITCHEN END TRAILING)
TSO
FK(7)
SK(8)

with a note, Reverse formation between Sheffield and Manchester..

The above formation matches with the 1976-7 ER Cross-Country workings book. Curiously, the 1977-8 LMR carriage workings list a different formation, but as the train was ER stock, perhaps they were less focused on getting it right? The LMR book lists the 15.15 Manchester (P) to Parkeston (reverses at Sheffield) as:

BG(NAV)
CK
RB (ex-LNER vehicle)
FK
4 TSO
BSO

Balance 07.28 from Parkeston.

To add to the above, the late Peter Mallaband recorded the Harwich-Manchester set at Nottingham in August 1977 as:

Number Type Mark
M80578 BG 1
E15746 CK 1
E1682 RB 1
E13261 FK 1
W5168 TSO 2
E4539 TSO 1
E5140 TSO 2
E5074 TSO 2
E9392 BSO 2

The buffet is a Mark I not LNER, but the remaining Gresley ones were withdrawn in 1977 and the two Thompson ones had gone to the ScR I believe.

[lincolnian]

Yep - me again. I've just acquired a marvellous book by W B Yeadon entitled 'Named Trains on LNER Lines', which includes a goodly section on the North Country Continental. This includes a wonderful photograph of B17 No 2845 in apple green arriving in Lincoln from the south sometime between 1935 and 1939 which is full of detail. Interestingly enough the train has just crossed the Durham Ox crossing and, on an adjacent siding, there can be seen a gas tank wagon in exactly the same place as the one shown on three photo's on another recent thread here under LNER Photographs from StevieG entitled 'Level Crossings - The Way We Were ...'. Also shown is what appears to be another passenger train leaving southbound on an adjacent line headed by ... I'm not expert enough to know ... but it also appears to be in apple green and I think the cabside number starts with 29?, or is it ?? There's another engine unrecognisable to me sitting in a siding. All in all, it is a very atmospheric photograph and I just wish such colour and action had been around when 'I were a lad'. As I've said above on this thread, I saw all the Pacific classes and V2's, etc., on main line diversion days, but I never saw a B17 at the head of a rake of teak coaches ...... and I wish I had, that's all.

[beejay]

Having lived at various points along the LDECR all my life, I have always had an interest in this ‘not too interesting railway’.
However back in the late 50’s - early 60’s, during the Brittania haulage period, our train spotting days were brightened up by the passage of the ‘North Country Continental’!
The train was diverted over the LDECR from, I think, Beighton through to Pyewipe Junction, missing out its Worksop stop. (I think it was due to bridge repairs between Sheffield and Worksop)
I have put these questions, a number of times, to various people over the years and had no success with answers.
Is there anyone out there who can help me?!!

The questions are:-
When was it?
For how long?
Had it ever happened before?
What locos were involved?
Did it stop at, maybe, Edwinstowe in lieu of Worksop?
ARE THERE ANY PHOTOS OUT THERE?

I’ll be very pleased, and surprised, if I get any answers.
Regards to all,
Bob

[Pyewipe Junction]

Hello beejay:

the Boat Train started to be hauled by 'Brits' late in 1960 when March received some of Norwich's allocation. I well remember my shock of seeing Britannia herself at Lincoln Central on the first day of the new arrangements. As far as I can remember there was never any mention of a train called the North Country Continental. The three cross-country trains that went through Lincoln were: Harwich-Liverpool (the Boat Train), York-Yarmouth and Newcastle-Colchester, plus some others on summer Saturdays.

So I am inclined to think you are in fact referring to the Boat Train. It may well have been diverted for a short time as you describe. However, it would have had to give up stops at Worksop, Retford (I think) and Gainsborough Lea Road - the direct Lincoln-Retford line having been closed at Cottam in 1959 because of problems with the bridge at Torksey.

Do you have any information on the bridge repairs, how long they lasted and why they were necessary?

[stembok]

The Britannia diagram on the Harwich- Sheffield boat train actually began in September 1958 with the start of the new timetable and was booked for a 30A Stratford Britannia, at least to begin with. The full diagram -as posted previously by robertcwp - was 02.55 freight Goodmayes Yard to Parkeston Quay; 08.00 Harwich -Liverpool as far as Sheffield Victoria C 12.45?; the return working to Parkeston Quay C 15.15-15.30 ex Sheffield ?, and finally the 23.40 Class D freight to London Spitalfields. The diagram was the result of dieselisation of the GE line Norwich services, cascading some of the GE Britannias onto workings such as this and the Clacton services. It was only later that the GE line Britannias began to move to March and Immingham, as complete dieselisation of the GE came closer. At times Britannias from Norwich may have appeared on the boat train working, because, as dieselisation increased, all of the GE Britannias were sent to 32A for maintenance purposes and there was probably a degree of common user working as a result. Engine crews were changed at Ipswich and March on both legs of the passenger journey.

[beejay]

Thanks Pyewipe and Stembok for your replies.
I am fairly well versed in the history of 'The North Country Continental'(The Boat Train), a named it never actually carried. It is the previously mentioned DIVERSION for which I would appreciate information.

Regarding Torksey Viaduct. All the information you could need is in the publication called 'Great Central Railway East of Sheffield' by Geoffrey Hurst (Milepost Publications, Worksop - if they still exist!) There are a few good photos of Brit. hauled 'North Countries' in this book.
Once again thanks for your replies but it is the LDECR diversion of this train for which I am seeking answers.
Bob

[Pyewipe Junction]

Thanks for the heads-up on the book, beejay. I got one quite easily (and cheaply) through amazon. There were three available!

I notice it's called 'Volume 1'. Did Volume 2 ever appear?

[beejay]

Hi Pywipe
I haven't come across Vol.2 but that's not to say there isn't one.
Another interesting publication is 'The Railways of North Lincolnshire' by C.T.Goode.

[robertcwp]

B&R DVD Vol 87 Great Central Remembered has a short colour clip from the mid-1950s (possibly just after the Woodhead electrification was completed). It shows a westbound train emerging from Woodhead Tunnel, formed (all crimson/cream except BG):

TK - Gresley end-door
TK - Gresley
TK - Mk I
FK - Gresley 6-compartment 52'6" (GE Section)
BG - Mk I plain crimson
TK - Thompson
TK - Mk I
TK - Mk I
BTK - Mk I

The train is hauled by a black EM1.

Though there is no firm evidence, this appears to be the Harwich-Liverpool train and is a close match for contemporary carriage workings.

Note in particular the use of a plain crimson Mark I BG in the middle of the train. The Winter 1954-5 workings show a Thompson FK (also 6-compartment) rather than a short-frame Gresley one.