Proposed new housing along the Hatfield to Hertford branch

[sturrock]

Great conversation you guys - most enjoyable!

[Mickey]

Great conversation you guys - most enjoyable!

Thanks sturrock appreciate your comment.

[Hatfield Shed]

The Luton and Dunstable branch ran through attractive countryside alongside the River Lea and adjacent the two landscaped parks of Brocket Hall and Luton Hoo. It may still be enjoyed on foot, bike and possibly horse, but how much better it might have been as a preserved railway. There would be something of a problem finding LNER design steam traction for the WGC to Dunstable section, single examples of N2, N7 and J52 preserved..

[Mickey]

The Luton and Dunstable branch ran through attractive countryside alongside the River Lea and adjacent the two landscaped parks of Brocket Hall and Luton Hoo. It may still be enjoyed on foot, bike and possibly horse, but how much better it might have been as a preserved railway. There would be something of a problem finding LNER design steam traction for the WGC to Dunstable section, single examples of N2, N7 and J52 preserved..

Yes you are right Hatfield Shed the Ayot to Luton Hoo section of the single line in particular with passing loops at both Ayot and Harpenden East stations did run through some attractive countryside of mainly open land and woods. With regards to preserved steam or diesel locos in particular working over the line if the branch had been 'saved for preservation' on closure in 1965 the N2 & N7 tanks and even Brush type 2s and Craven units would been ok and as for any preserved steam locos working over the branch since the 1970s onwards provided they was accommodated by the 'loading gauge' they probably would have been allowed to have run over the branch although the sight of a SR Merchant Navy or a LMS Duchess would have looked 'a bit out of place' running through Wheathampstaed station or Luton Hoo if they were allowed to run over the branch that is?.

[Hatfield Shed]

The first mile and a half of reverse curvature and continuously adverse gradient of the line as it diverged West from the ECML was a challenge, initially a 15 chain curve or thereabouts on 1 in 100, and then somewhat easier reverse curves on a gradient of 1 in 56 in broadleaf woodland for seasonally nicely slippy rails. (I have seen a pair of diesels on the 'stink train' heading to the Blackbridge tip site stalled in the woodland North of Brockswood Lane.)

For steam traction the restriction was 17 loaded wagons, 40 empties, in the down direction. (The latter was for the train of lows to collect crated cars from Vauxhall at Luton going for export from Tilbury, which was a regular traffic post war into the mid 1950s. This was a Hornsey turn, and I recall hearing a very characterful description of the footplate crew - with a cooperative guard- on the possibility of taking along a shotgun, just in case there was time for a little poaching while out in the country...)

[Mickey]

The first mile and a half of reverse curvature and continuously adverse gradient of the line as it diverged West from the ECML was a challenge, initially a 15 chain curve or thereabouts on 1 in 100, and then somewhat easier reverse curves on a gradient of 1 in 56 in broadleaf woodland for seasonally nicely slippy rails. (I have seen a pair of diesels on the 'stink train' heading to the Blackbridge tip site stalled in the woodland North of Brockswood Lane.)

Ha ha Hatfield Shed you conjured up a long forgot memory for me of a handful of times around 1969-70/71 of being near the Cherry Tree pub at the bottom of the Hunters Road bridge on Bridge Road East and hearing a Ashburton Grove-Blackbridge sidings 'rubbish train' tackling the rising gradient on the left-hand curve beyond WGC station and hearing every 'rail joint' that train went over being amplified through the thick woods with the train locos (usually double-headed on these trains) going 'flat out' on the rising gradient and underneath the 'White bridge' on Knightsfield Road and heading for the summit on the approach to Ayot.

When I remember seeing the Ashburton Grove-Blackbridge sidings and return workings around 1968-70/71 at WGC station they were either worked by mostly green livered Brush type 2s working in multiple together (latter day class 31s) or green livered double-headed British Thomson-Houston locos or latter day class 15s

[rockinjohn]

Hi, it was intresting that(FP)always had two (2) pairs of Class15 on hand for the "Ashburton Pullman" working,& the early class members I witnessed transferred in replacing the 15's orig.allocation as they fell by the wayside, the G.E.had a few spares with the closure of many of the Essex and Suffolk Branch Lines,the idea &trailed was to have two(2) "Baby"Deltics for the workings but the train was found to be to long for the following trains(?) the more informed out there may know what was suggested here, loop length maybe?, but the loop in later years was in the tip sidings.So a combination could be found on the working if no more than one 15 was servicable with a 15/Baby Deltic lash up or 15&31 or as mentioned two 31's.jj

[Mickey]

Hi, it was intresting that(FP)always had two (2) pairs of Class15 on hand for the "Ashburton Pullman" working,& the early class members I witnessed transferred in replacing the 15's orig.allocation as they fell by the wayside, the G.E.had a few spares with the closure of many of the Essex and Suffolk Branch Lines,the idea &trailed was to have two(2) "Baby"Deltics for the workings but the train was found to be to long for the following trains(?) the more informed out there may know what was suggested here, loop length maybe?, but the loop in later years was in the tip sidings.So a combination could be found on the working if no more than one 15 was servicable with a 15/Baby Deltic lash up or 15&31 or as mentioned two 31's.jj

On a 'shed bash' to Stratford loco back in 1971 around the back of the loco sheds I remembering seeing maybe 4 or 5 B.R. green livered BTH class 15s in a line standing 'buffer to buffer' and on another road maybe 4, 5 or 6 'Baby Deltics' also standing in a line 'buffer to buffer' which I presume were all awaiting scrapping?.

[Hatfield Shed]

Hi, it was interesting that(FP)always had two (2) pairs of Class15 on hand for the "Ashburton Pullman" working...

I cannot now recall when and where, and by whom and what organisation, an address was given on the first dozen years of diesel traction from KX. The BTH type 1 (class 15) was not mentioned.

During the usual following Q&A session there was a request for anything that might be said about these. Maintenance heavy, unreliable, shy on power delivery. They were specially diagrammed in the speaker's opinion, only on 'non-critical' turns, and in pairs so that there was a chance of getting home under their own power. Essentially the utilisation was limited to peak demand, when all the available reliable traction was 'fully deployed'; all the class 15's would have been gladly traded for an extra couple of class20's at FP ...

[Mickey]

Hi, it was interesting that(FP)always had two (2) pairs of Class15 on hand for the "Ashburton Pullman" working...

I cannot now recall when and where, and by whom and what organisation, an address was given on the first dozen years of diesel traction from KX. The BTH type 1 (class 15) was not mentioned.

I maybe wrong but the BTH type 1s were all withdrawn in 1971 so was the TOPs 'class 15' designation given posthumously to these locos by British Rail because they never carried the new numbering starting with no.15 ???? because the TOPs numbering didn't appear until 1974 I believe?.

The BTH type 1s I always thought were good looking diesel locos.

Those on the 'Ashburton Grove Pullmans' where they had BTH type 1s working the trains they were always double-headed working in multiple they had to be on those diagrams being HEAVY TRAINS!. The Brush type 2s were always double-headed working in multiple on those same trains as well.

I believe the 'Ashburton Grove Pullmans' were all run as class 8 freight trains (3-2 bell code) being all loose coupled wagons with brake vans at either end of the train.

[rockinjohn]

Yes the D82xx were a nice looking loco &maybe run in pairs @ this point because their was concern that if one loco failed it could limp there or home avoiding a disaster on the Main,they were often found with front end leading,unlike some other similar design locos that ran cab first with crews insisting on a visit to the turntable or triangle for Right Way round working for this to occur to avoid excessive fumes&exhaust suffered when running, it was noted when Devons Rd(1D) closed the LMS kept the EE1 allocation for their books (why not in retrospect)&soon shunted off the D82XX to Stratford(30A) for the Dock&local work, Mr Hardy having had 10800 on his SR books(for a short period it didn't stray far from Rugby for obvious reasons) in the past &well aware of its short comings turned white on opening an engine compartment door to find basically the same loco & its plumbing nightmare and was well aware of the nature of the beasts class of ten thrust upon them barring them from the East London Line in case of failure &LT anger(yes they did go down the pipe &not fail but better safe than sorry) ,so was the D84XX the worst &most unreliable diesel class allotted to the Eastern Region & take the Crown above all incl the "Baby"Deltics"which ended up quite reliable in the end,not counting other Regions disasters amongst others like the Metro-Vicks.