Welwyn Garden City

[StevieG]

Here are scans of a couple of pages of a King's Cross-Hitchin route learning booklet from 1968.

Down:



Up:

Thanks v.m. Robert. I remember those very well : In the late '80s production of revisions/new ones was under the control af Traction Instr'r/Insp. Alan McDonald.

[StevieG]

" .... How often were trains sent on to the down goods rather than straight on to the down main bearing in mind that there was only 2 track just a little way down the road . .... "
Graham

Can't add much basic stuff to what Micky said about this. His example is quite a typical one I would think.
During my rather occasional visits to WGC and Welwyn North boxes, I think I only saw it used once or twice, though I never saw all hours of all days!
Apart from the instance that Micky mentioned, there was one occasion at WGC when things weren't running in the right order, where a DMU (empty) was shunted forward, down 'the Goods road' to be out of the way for a short while (without needing a 'margin' in which to cross the Fast lines over to the Up side) to allow another train to come and go from platform 2, after which the DMU was brought back into the platform to proceed elsewhere.

The DG section was a non-passenger line, and was worked to Permissive Block Regs. (more than one train allowed in-section at one time) - [it also meant that to accept a train on the DG from WGC box, the Welwyn North signalman did not need the line to be clear beyond his first stop signal - a signalling advantage that I won't expand on in detail here if you don't mind].
In earlier busier-freight times, this allowed if necessary, several trains of goods, empty coaching stock or light locomotive type, to queue up at Digswell to await passage through the 2-track-only section to Woolmer Green without (hopefully) delaying more important traffic.
One other possible use I have thought of is, if the WGC signalman was faced with a through non-passenger train of any type just left Hatfield on the Down Slow, plus a Down Fast passenger train not far behind needing to call at the Down Slow platform, one obvious course of action might be, - given that routeing the non-passenger forward by crossing to the Down Main at WGC would involve it approaching No.10 signal at red, until entering the platform, when the red would release to yellow or (probably) green - to hold the non-passenger out south of WGC to allow the passenger in first, thus ensuring that it was not delayed waiting to cross into the platform : But, if the non-passenger was to be given a straight run through to an unoccupied Down Goods, which could be done under clear signals all the way, then it could probably be run through first before the passenger was approaching closely enough to be checked down and delayed awaiting the signal into the platform.

[Mickey]

Reading what you have written Stevie reminds me of a day about 41 years ago (1972) when the local signalling Inspector (it may have been Ted Bosnall?) turns up at the box and claimed that a 'certain management person' at Kings Cross had ridden on a passenger train home from Kings Cross one evening a few days earlier and when his train departed WGC station it was routed down the GOODS LINE towards Digswell?. (Was it really??).

A quick check in the book (Train register) showed that said train involved was routed F/S/F (Fast/Slow/Fast) at WGC. Granted it was easy to 'fiddle' the entry to read F/S/F and not show said train travelling down the GOODS LINE but a phone call to the Welwyn north signalman confirmed that said train was routed down the MAIN LINE from WGC box towards Welwyn north.

Today EVERYTHING would be electrically recorded so nobody couldn change or hide anything but i was in the box on that particular evening and NO passenger train was routed down the Goods road towards Digswell thats for sure.

That taught me a good lesson which has stood me for the last 40 odd years and that is it just goes to show that you never know who is travelling on these trains plus also 'unseen eyes' are always watching your every move 24/7?.

[Mickey]

Back to the DOWN GOODS LINE between WGC and Digswell.

1.No.10 lever/colour light signal on the end of the down slow line platform could be cleared to YELLOW in combination with pressing route button 'A' when TRAIN ON LINE was received from Hatfield no.3 or later on Hatfield no.2 box.

The WGC signalman could clear 'all the boards' down the slow line to down goods line towards Digswell with the following levers-

no.7 Down slow line colour light distant signal.
no.8 Down slow line outter home signal.
no.9 Down slow line inner home signal.
no.10 Down slow to down goods line colour light signal in combination to pressing button 'A'.

2.On some rare occasions when a goods/freight train would travel down the goods line towards Digswell the Welwyn north signalman mite have cleared 'all his boards' off the down goods line and through Welwyn north station including his down goods line 'motorised' semaphore distant signal which would be seen at a very rare 45 degrees angle or a GREEN. at night!.

3.There was a fairly long 'sand drag' at the Digswell end of the down goods line.

IT GETS A BIT COMPLICATED FROM NOW ON-

4A.On 3 or 4 occasions i can recall that either a train or a light engine was stood behind no.17 ground disc-signal (near the box) in this case the WGC signalman would have to send and have acknowledged the 3-3-2 bell Shunting into forward section by the Welwyn north signalman who would then put his block indicator to LINE OCCUPIED if the block indicator wasn't already 'pegged' at LINE OCCUPIED for a train already in the block-section (permissive block-section).

4B.On completion of this shunt move the WGC signalman would send 8 bells Shunt withdrawn to the Welwyn north signalman who would acknowledge the 8 bells and restore his block indicator to LINE BLOCKED.

4C.It gets a bit more complicated when there is already another train standing in the block-section between WGC and Digswell and the shunt movement is withdrawn at the WGC end of the block-section so obviously after acknowledging the 8 bells Shunt withdrawn the Welwyn north signalman would leave his block indicator at LINE OCCUPIED for the train already standing in the down goods line plus if the train leaves the down goods line before the shunt movement has been withdrawn at the WGC end of the down goods line when the Welwyn north signalman gives the 2-1 bell Train out of section for the train that has left the down goods line the block indicator would remain at LINE OCCUPIED until the 8 bells Shunt withdrawn has been sent by the WGC signalman and acknowledged by the Welwyn north signalman who would then restore his block indicator to LINE BLOCKED.

***On permissive block lines in general if there is more then ONE train in the block-section the signalman in advance will give 1 beat on the block bell for every train that leaves the permissive block-section and leave the block indicator at LINE OCCUPIED until the last train leaves the permissive block-section then the signalman will give 2-1 Train out of section to the signalman in the rear and after it is acknowledged he will the restore the block indicator to LINE BLOCKED.***

[Gra]

I came across this superb photo of WGC station today; the quality is pretty good so it enlarges well. Just look at how busy WGC was at that time, there's loads going on and for me it raises a lot of questions but I will limit it to one for now.

I thought I had more or less got the track layout sorted for the Luton line but this photo shows a short siding in the bottom right hand corner of the picture which runs off the passing loop on the Luton line. When was it put in and what was its purpose?

I have been hunting google for good track plans of the station and in particular the sidings during 1960 to around 1978 but can't find any. Does anyone know where I can find some?

Sorry that's two questions

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8058/8257 ... 3b3a_z.jpg


Graham



http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8058/8257 ... 3b3a_z.jpg

[StevieG]

I came across this superb photo of WGC station today; the quality is pretty good so it enlarges well. Just look at how busy WGC was at that time, there's loads going on and for me it raises a lot of questions but I will limit it to one for now.

I thought I had more or less got the track layout sorted for the Luton line but this photo shows a short siding in the bottom right hand corner of the picture which runs off the passing loop on the Luton line. When was it put in and what was its purpose? .... "
" ....

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8058/8257 ... 3b3a_z.jpg

Graham "

This looks like one taken just in or just before 'my' era, Gra.
The train is one of the 'rubbish' trains returning from Blackbridge sidings, I think in the period when that was the then remaining western limit of the Luton line, and is of the type about which Micky has described how they were operated and reversed to reach the up lines and head back to London.

I say this because this looks to me like the period when the Luton line Loop was a 'loop' no more, and had been demoted to a one-ended siding with the London end points connection removed, the Luton line closed between WGC and Hatfield, and a new Down Slow-Back Platform (Plat. 1 [former Luton line]) crossover (No.5) put in just south of WGC platform, parallel with No.14, to retain an access to the Luton line to compensate :
Why? - because L3 (Down signal for the Luton platform) signal just outside the signal box is no longer visible (see again R.Pike's box diagram photo).

So I think the siding is not running 'off the passing loop', but is the remaining part of the loop, running off the Luton through line and converted to a siding, including the short overrun track (covered at that time by the yellow track circuit FR in RP's photo: the track circuit was not needed when this was a siding), with buffer stop, past the site of former loop exit signal L10 and with the loop-end crossover L12.
However I see a points-type rod crossing under the siding towards the apparent position of the siding points under the train: If this did lead to those points, then I wonder if the photo was taken soon after the supposed above changes to the lines and signalling, before the points had been divorced from signal box control (though I think they ended up controlled from a Ground Frame released by the single line One Engine in Steam Staff, so if this had already been done, and the GF was out-of-shot, that could have been their operational rod ....?)

As to what the siding was used for, (mail/newspaper vans?)... >>>, Micky?

[R. pike]

I thought I had more or less got the track layout sorted for the Luton line but this photo shows a short siding in the bottom right hand corner of the picture which runs off the passing loop on the Luton line. When was it put in and what was its purpose?

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8058/8257 ... 3b3a_z.jpg
Graham

The short spur is covered by track circuit FR on the Luton line i posted earlier. Because of the track circuit arrangements i'm fairly sure nothing could be kept in it. It was simply there as a small over run.

[Mickey]

Sorry but i can't access this photograph because of the PC that i am using has certain restrictions on it (works PC).

The very earliest date that i recall seeing the WGC layout was around Sept/Oct 1967 and then fairly regular from about mid-1968 onwards (train spotting and regular trips up to Kings Cross and back).

Yes around 1967-68 (maybe into 69?) i do recall there being a siding opposite no.1 platform (Luton platform) although not to near to the Luton line platform there was a bit of a 'gap' between platform no.1 and the siding that ended at a set of stops just underneath the long footbridge. Yes there usually was a GUV van or 2 stabled in this siding probably like Stevie referred to for newspaper traffic?.

Also i vaguely recall seeing some piles of coal in that open waste area near to where the old bike shed and booking office and footbridge steps commenced.

[Mickey]

Thanks Graham for the photograph.

Three things with regards to the box in the picture-

1.Both the front and rear end nameboards were changed sometime around 1969 or 1970?. The earlier nameboards had white letters on a dark background and the later nameboards had dark letters on a light'ish grey background with a dark surround i am not sure of the exact date when this came about?. (It could well be the same nameboards but they had been repainted the other way around with regards to the letters and the background?).

2.The toilet shown at the rear of the box was 'enlarged' around early 1973 (i think it was around Feb/Mar '73) to include a 'hand wash basin' but in so doing one of the rear windows was 'lost' leaving less of a view looking northwards from inside the box.

3.Also there was x2 small coal fires provided in the box one opposite levers 10-20 (thats a rough guess?) and a 2nd opposite levers 60-70 (again thats a rough guess?) which strangely enough were rarely used/lit when i was at the box except in very cold weather and usually only then during the night time plus it was also the telegraph lads other job to clean the fires out next morning and refill the coal bucket.

[Gra]

Here is another interesting photograph taken from a 105 on the bi-directional line and most likely heading towards Hatfield . It is rare to see a photo of WGC from its southern approach and shows the signalling arrangement well. Again there's lots to look at here.

http://www.rcts.org.uk/features/mystery ... =19&page=1

Graham

[StevieG]

Here is another interesting photograph taken from a 105 on the bi-directional line and most likely heading towards Hatfield . It is rare to see a photo of WGC from its southern approach and shows the signalling arrangement well. Again there's lots to look at here.

http://www.rcts.org.uk/features/mystery ... =19&page=1

Graham

Yes that is a good 'un Gra. The train is obviously on the Luton Line (single) and signalling can be seen in the station which demontrates that the Luton line Loop was still operational at the time.

[Gra]

This thread originally started with a request asking for track plans of WGC station in the 1950's and British Railways Illustrated Annual No9 was recommended. I obtained a copy of this last week and there is a good article on both Welwyn North and WGC stations with excellent track plans of each station. The plans are shown as being from the1950's but ideally I was looking for the 1960's, so I set about trying to establish just when in the 1950's the plans would have been drawn up. The clue revolves around the passing loop in number 1 platform on the Luton line which is clearly shown on the track plan. Looking at photographs available online and in various books I established that there was no loop in June 1951 but there was in May 1959. This left a gap of some 8 years when the loop could have been installed and I was looking to pin it down to a couple of years at the very least. Then I came across an accident report dated January 1957 and there is no passing loop on that track plan. So I then thought the loop was constructed between Jan 1957 and May 1959 a period of some 28 months at least until I found another photo showing the rebuilt foot bridge but track out of camera shot dated 1956. Anyway it would seem that the plans are from the late 1950's so they will be good enough to base my layout on.

Does anyone on here know exactly when the foot bridge was modified and passing loop put in?

Graham

[giner]

Here's an aerial shot, one of a few actually, of WGC station under construction in 1926. You can clearly see the branches off to Luton and to Hertford. Of added interest are the presence of two trains, one goods on the down slow through the station, and a Pullman speeding through past the Hertford branch on the down fast. Interesting that the Pullman has only five coaches. Here's the link:

http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/imag ... city&ref=1

You can move about and also zoom in, but the resolution is not great.

Tip: Use the side arrows on the main image for further views. There's a really good one of the signal box and station in 1928 when you zoom in.

[Mickey]

An interesting set of photographs giner, the town was a bit sparse back in 1926-28 but had only been open 2-3 years earlier.

I like the railway connection between the station going around to the Shredded Wheat factory all in open land as well.

Also the WGC film studios, 2 interesting railway connected film were made at this film studio one The Flying Scotsman in 1929 starring Ray Milland & Pauline Johnson and the other called Temptation harbour starring Robert Newton (he of Long John Silver fame) and William Hartnell (he of Doctor Who fame). Robert Newton plays the part of a railway signalman at Newhaven docks s/box and William Hartnell as the signalling D.I. believe it or not.

[giner]

Hi Micky. How did I know you'd be the first one in on this? Anyway, I just had a gander at Hatfield as well. I never realised it had such extensive yards.

The beauty of this site is that no matter where your interest lies on the ECML, you can have a good old butchers at it. Enjoy it, mate.