When i first went to the box as a 15 year old telegraph lad in July 1972 the track diagram may have been the 2nd of Richard's diagrams with some alterations added although it may have been a different diagram altogether?.
1.Of course the Luton line had been abolished but part of the Luton line through platform no.1 remained and ended just beyond the box (out of sight from the box) around a left-hand curve passed the Hunter's road overbridge also L5 stop signal was converted to 'fixed at danger' and a disc signal was mounted lower down the signal post that read-Platform no.1 to down slow line LIMIT OF SHUNT.
2.The Hertford branch was shown on the 1972 diagram but signals nos.74 & 83 had been abolished as well as the 'fixed' distant signal.
3.The motor points & signals at the 'top end' of the up yard had also been abolished. Lever nos.51-59 which were associated with various points & signals around the top end of the up yard as well as the up reception & up goods line had ALL been disconnected but these levers hadn't been repainted 'white' as spare levers and remained in there old colours also no.67 signal had been abolished & no.68 signal was changed from a 'Calling on' arm to just a red miniture arm.
4.The 'Luton frame' was still in the box (it was separate from the main lever frame) but was not used other then x2 brown levers that each worked one of the barriers on the barrow crossing outside the box, one lever worked the down barrier and the other lever worked the up barrier.
5.Around the spring of 1973 the track diagram was replaced by a 'cheaper temporary' diagram with RED track circuits this diagram only lasted until the resignalling in September 1973 when the lever frame was abolished and was replaced by a NX panel.
Welwyn Garden City
Moderators: 52D, Tom F, Rlangham, Atlantic 3279, Blink Bonny, Saint Johnstoun, richard
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R. pike
- GNR C1 4-4-2
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Re: Welwyn Garden City
Aye up, Ayot
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StevieG
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Re: Welwyn Garden City
Aha. As I thought : Notice board on Ayot 28 signal - "Non Token" Section.R. pike wrote:Aye up, Ayot
Another gem RP, Thanks very much.
'Ere! 'Oo nicked Horn's Sidings?
BZOH
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R. pike
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Re: Welwyn Garden City
Yes Horn's has vanished. There must be an Ayot out there with it on. After what has shown up over this Christmas photo wise anything is possible..
Re: Welwyn Garden City
Funny how these threads bring back memories. The Norton Abrasives traffic in the final years was sent from Hull, a plant on the docks estate, in air braked hoppers worked on Speedlink services. The other destination was Stafford on the rump of the old LNW line in from Wellington (to the west) I think Stafford is just about legit here as it was served by the GN!
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Mickey
Re: Welwyn Garden City
I went in AYOT box around 1968 or 69 as it was still standing there redundant although minus the lever frame & block shelf. This box was situated in a very attractive area of countryside i seem to recall.
A couple of L.N.E.R. concrete signal posts still remained in position (minus signal arms) which were Ayot's up starting signal no.31 & down home signal no.3 posts. The single line was still layed in (the up loop had been lifted) was still in use by the occasional Ashburton Grove to Blackbridge sidings rubbish trains and there return empties.
A couple of L.N.E.R. concrete signal posts still remained in position (minus signal arms) which were Ayot's up starting signal no.31 & down home signal no.3 posts. The single line was still layed in (the up loop had been lifted) was still in use by the occasional Ashburton Grove to Blackbridge sidings rubbish trains and there return empties.
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Mickey
Re: Welwyn Garden City
Possibly the last word on the subject about WGC s/box was 'the extension' that was added to (i think?) the front end of the box near the ramp of the down platform to accommodate the 'Luton frame' when it was installed.
It was quite apparent especially on rainny days the change in the brickwork on the outside of the box where the extended brickwork started and ended.
***I always thought it was the front end of the box that the extension was added to because the 'Luton frame' was at the front end of the box when you walked in through the door and that was the smallest amount of 'new brickwork' compaired to the large amount of older brickwork from just over halfway back towards the back end of the box but i may be wrong it may have been the other way around?.***
Anyone thats interested in WGC s/box should also look at other topic pages including on this forum because there is a lot of other information scattered on these other topic pages about this box.
1.Welwyn Garden City s/box 1972/73
2.Welwyn Garden City s/box pre-September 1973
3.Welwyn Garden City s/box resignalling 1973
4.Welwyn Garden City s/box NX panel
5.Welwyn Garden City s/box the 'Luton frame'.
It was quite apparent especially on rainny days the change in the brickwork on the outside of the box where the extended brickwork started and ended.
***I always thought it was the front end of the box that the extension was added to because the 'Luton frame' was at the front end of the box when you walked in through the door and that was the smallest amount of 'new brickwork' compaired to the large amount of older brickwork from just over halfway back towards the back end of the box but i may be wrong it may have been the other way around?.***
Anyone thats interested in WGC s/box should also look at other topic pages including on this forum because there is a lot of other information scattered on these other topic pages about this box.
1.Welwyn Garden City s/box 1972/73
2.Welwyn Garden City s/box pre-September 1973
3.Welwyn Garden City s/box resignalling 1973
4.Welwyn Garden City s/box NX panel
5.Welwyn Garden City s/box the 'Luton frame'.
Re: Welwyn Garden City
Thanks Micky and StevieG for two excellent posts on the workings of the WGC search light signals. It has taken me a while to digest their content but I think I am there now. Thanks also goes to R.pike for providing the track diagram as well. It was useful knowing where individual signals are positioned.
A few questions come to mind. How often were trains sent on to the down goods rather than straight on to the down main bearing in mind that there was only 2 track just a little way down the road . With regard to the down fast signal when it was showing red, green or single yellow was it top or bottom lense that was used?
I have just thought of something else on track rather than signaling. Why were there catch points on the down goods just north of the s/box?
Graham
A few questions come to mind. How often were trains sent on to the down goods rather than straight on to the down main bearing in mind that there was only 2 track just a little way down the road . With regard to the down fast signal when it was showing red, green or single yellow was it top or bottom lense that was used?
I have just thought of something else on track rather than signaling. Why were there catch points on the down goods just north of the s/box?
Graham
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Mickey
Re: Welwyn Garden City
1.When i was at the box from July 1972 until the Down Goods line became the Down Slow line when the resignalling took place in mid-September 1973 i would say between thoughts dates it was a pretty rare event to have a train or a light engine go down the Goods line towards Digswell although i think that there use to be a train of ECS (Inner suburban stock-block enders) that use to go down the goods road in the early evening bound for Hitchin and stand at Digswell for an hour although i can't recall if that use to happen when i was at the box but it did use to happen around 1969-71 because i remember seeing it happening regular.Gra wrote:A few questions come to mind. How often were trains sent on to the down goods rather than straight on to the down main bearing in mind that there was only 2 track just a little way down the road . With regard to the down fast signal when it was showing red, green or single yellow was it top or bottom lense that was used?
I have just thought of something else on track rather than signaling. Why were there catch points on the down goods just north of the s/box?.
2.The x2 aspect colour light signal in the Down fast line ouside the box showed a RED in the bottom lens a YELLOW also in the bottem lens a DOUBLE YELLOW obviously in both lens and a GREEN in the top lens.
I recall coming in the box one morning for a 6:am early turn (on the book) sometime around 1972/73 and the night turn signalman (Cecil White) said to the early turn man (it may have been Harry Fitzgerald?) that a driver on either the 11:pm departure from Kings Cross or the 1:am or the 1:15am Newcastle had reported on his arrival at Doncaster that on passing Welwyn Garden City box the colour light signal outside the box was showing a DOUBLE YELLOW aspect for a second night running with Welwyn north's 'motorised' inner distant signal showing off?. It was checked out by the S&T and it was found to be faulty or dirty contacts i think?.
3.The catch-points in the Down Goods line near the box were i presume for 'flank protection' purposes plus i think it may still have been on a slightly 'rising gradient' in that area but i can't recall at this point in time?.
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Mickey
Re: Welwyn Garden City
I have posted this before but i'll post it again. That colour light signal in the Down fast line outside the box wasn't worked off a lever but worked inconjunction with the track circuits in both the Down fast & Down slow lines starting from either or both 'berth' track circuits showing occupied 200 yards on the approach side to the Down fast & Down slow lines outter home signals (the approach side to the 20th Mile overbridge) and all the other track circuits in both the Down fast & Down slow lines in between.
One weekday around mid-day the S&T wanted to do a test to prove something with regards to that colour light signal in the Down fast line outside the box that if the signalman put no.23 lever (Down fast line inner home signal) back to DANGER before the train had 'hit' the track circuit running through WGC station in the down fast line that colour light signal outside the box would return to DANGER but they wasn't totally sure that it would?. The S&T diagram said it would go back to DANGER but would it?.
The train selected was the 12 o'clock out of Kings Cross to Edinburgh a Deltic hauling a 12 or 13 coach train of a mixture of B.R.Mk1s & Mk2s!!!.
Said train comes tearing down the fast line from Hatfield approaching WGC under 'clear signals' when in the box the S&T linesmen ask the signalman (Harry Fitzgerald) to be ready to throw no.23 lever back in the frame when the train actually passes said signal instead of waiting for the whole train to pass over the facing points at the south end of the station like would normally be the case.
Harry throws back no.23 lever as asked to by the S&T linesmen and BANG the GREEN colour light in the down fast line outside the box goes back to RED infront of the 12 o'clock to Edinburgh!!.
If you have never seen a Deltic doing about 90mph with a train of about 12 or 13 coaches behind the drawbar make a FULL BRAKE APPLICATION and pull up in it's own train length well you would done so that day!!. That train was doing about 90mph at the south end of WGC station and had come to a 'dead stand' with the rear coach under the station footbridge!!!.
By the way the S&T diagram was correct if the signalman put no.23 lever back before the train 'hit' the track circuit in the down fast line through the station it put the colour light signal in the down fast line outside the box back to DANGER
*** By the way the signalling was changed some what from about the spring of 1973 when TCB (Track Circuit Block) was extended from Hatfield no.2 to WGC on ALL roads south of WGC box so no.23 (Down fast line inner home) & no.12 (Down fast to Down slow line) and no.11 disc-signal (on the Down inner home signal post) to Down slow platform occupied were all abolished and there were other modifications as well done to the signalling.***
One weekday around mid-day the S&T wanted to do a test to prove something with regards to that colour light signal in the Down fast line outside the box that if the signalman put no.23 lever (Down fast line inner home signal) back to DANGER before the train had 'hit' the track circuit running through WGC station in the down fast line that colour light signal outside the box would return to DANGER but they wasn't totally sure that it would?. The S&T diagram said it would go back to DANGER but would it?.
The train selected was the 12 o'clock out of Kings Cross to Edinburgh a Deltic hauling a 12 or 13 coach train of a mixture of B.R.Mk1s & Mk2s!!!.
Said train comes tearing down the fast line from Hatfield approaching WGC under 'clear signals' when in the box the S&T linesmen ask the signalman (Harry Fitzgerald) to be ready to throw no.23 lever back in the frame when the train actually passes said signal instead of waiting for the whole train to pass over the facing points at the south end of the station like would normally be the case.
Harry throws back no.23 lever as asked to by the S&T linesmen and BANG the GREEN colour light in the down fast line outside the box goes back to RED infront of the 12 o'clock to Edinburgh!!.
If you have never seen a Deltic doing about 90mph with a train of about 12 or 13 coaches behind the drawbar make a FULL BRAKE APPLICATION and pull up in it's own train length well you would done so that day!!. That train was doing about 90mph at the south end of WGC station and had come to a 'dead stand' with the rear coach under the station footbridge!!!.
By the way the S&T diagram was correct if the signalman put no.23 lever back before the train 'hit' the track circuit in the down fast line through the station it put the colour light signal in the down fast line outside the box back to DANGER
*** By the way the signalling was changed some what from about the spring of 1973 when TCB (Track Circuit Block) was extended from Hatfield no.2 to WGC on ALL roads south of WGC box so no.23 (Down fast line inner home) & no.12 (Down fast to Down slow line) and no.11 disc-signal (on the Down inner home signal post) to Down slow platform occupied were all abolished and there were other modifications as well done to the signalling.***
Last edited by Mickey on Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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StevieG
- LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
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- Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:08 pm
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Re: Welwyn Garden City
Micky,
Point 2: I can't positively say you're wrong about where the green was on this signal, but normally with these searchlight signals, they were achieved by using a standard 3-aspect R/Y/G 3-aspect unit for the bottom, and adding a yellow-or-nothing top light, so on those, the green would be at the bottom as well.
If you know of a photo that includes a side or rear-ish view of the WGC DF signal, or can remember the view of the signal from the box well enough, if the bottom part was quite deep (front-to-back), but the rest above, including the top light, was relatively thin/shallow, then it would have been as I describe above.
Gra,
Re the DG 'catch points', the difference may appear subtle, but these are more properly known as Trap Points.
(Catch points were usually those located on rising gradients of 1 in 260 or steeper, trailing to normal direction rail movements and spring-operated to normally lay in the open or 'throw-off'/derail position, so that in the event of part of a goods train breaking away from the front (breakage of a wagon coupling or a drawbar) and without any, or insufficient number of, braked wagons to bring the runaway to a stand, and if the guard couldn't stop it with his van's handbrake, then it was considered the lesser of two evils that the runaway be derailed at a catch point, rather than be able to run back a long distance and perhaps collide head-on with a following train.
In normal operation the catch points had no effect as the axles of trains passing through them in the normal direction merely pushed the sprung points across to the 'closed' position, with the spring making them open again as each wheel went off the toe of the closed switch (point) blade. But for quite a few years now (20-ish?), all trains including freight have been fully-fitted throughout (i.e. on every vehicle) with the automatic brake (a train becoming divided in running causes an automatic brake application on both portions of the train), so the need for catch points has largely disappeared, and I think most have now been removed or secured closed, as to remain working and be effective they needed a decent level of maintenance, but their retention should now be a pointless provision.)
Trap points however are usually worked directly from a signal box or ground frame and were provided on goods lines and at sidings entrance/exits, irrespective of gradient, where an unauthorised movement (driven or runaway) in either direction would otherwise have been able to reach a line used by passenger trains. That's why those at WGC (lever No.16) were there, to derail a Down Goods line wrong direction runaway or whatever before it could hit a passenger train that might have been going through No. 19 Down Slow line (platform) to Down Main crossover beside the signal box.
To be fair there were a few places (under the '70s new signalling, Langley Jn., Hitchin [South] and Royston were three, but none at WGC) where it was necessary to put catch points in a rising gradient location where occasionally trains also had to stop in order to shunt back to sidings or other running lines. In this situation the catch points were allowed to operate in the usual spring-operated way for through trains, but were also fitted with what was known as a 'Slotted Joint' which, when a stop/shunt back movement had to be executed, enabled the points to be held closed for the safe passage of the facing movement by operation of a signalling control (mechanical or electrical).
[ Last para. added 18:42 06/Jan/13.]
Point 2: I can't positively say you're wrong about where the green was on this signal, but normally with these searchlight signals, they were achieved by using a standard 3-aspect R/Y/G 3-aspect unit for the bottom, and adding a yellow-or-nothing top light, so on those, the green would be at the bottom as well.
If you know of a photo that includes a side or rear-ish view of the WGC DF signal, or can remember the view of the signal from the box well enough, if the bottom part was quite deep (front-to-back), but the rest above, including the top light, was relatively thin/shallow, then it would have been as I describe above.
Gra,
Re the DG 'catch points', the difference may appear subtle, but these are more properly known as Trap Points.
(Catch points were usually those located on rising gradients of 1 in 260 or steeper, trailing to normal direction rail movements and spring-operated to normally lay in the open or 'throw-off'/derail position, so that in the event of part of a goods train breaking away from the front (breakage of a wagon coupling or a drawbar) and without any, or insufficient number of, braked wagons to bring the runaway to a stand, and if the guard couldn't stop it with his van's handbrake, then it was considered the lesser of two evils that the runaway be derailed at a catch point, rather than be able to run back a long distance and perhaps collide head-on with a following train.
In normal operation the catch points had no effect as the axles of trains passing through them in the normal direction merely pushed the sprung points across to the 'closed' position, with the spring making them open again as each wheel went off the toe of the closed switch (point) blade. But for quite a few years now (20-ish?), all trains including freight have been fully-fitted throughout (i.e. on every vehicle) with the automatic brake (a train becoming divided in running causes an automatic brake application on both portions of the train), so the need for catch points has largely disappeared, and I think most have now been removed or secured closed, as to remain working and be effective they needed a decent level of maintenance, but their retention should now be a pointless provision.)
Trap points however are usually worked directly from a signal box or ground frame and were provided on goods lines and at sidings entrance/exits, irrespective of gradient, where an unauthorised movement (driven or runaway) in either direction would otherwise have been able to reach a line used by passenger trains. That's why those at WGC (lever No.16) were there, to derail a Down Goods line wrong direction runaway or whatever before it could hit a passenger train that might have been going through No. 19 Down Slow line (platform) to Down Main crossover beside the signal box.
To be fair there were a few places (under the '70s new signalling, Langley Jn., Hitchin [South] and Royston were three, but none at WGC) where it was necessary to put catch points in a rising gradient location where occasionally trains also had to stop in order to shunt back to sidings or other running lines. In this situation the catch points were allowed to operate in the usual spring-operated way for through trains, but were also fitted with what was known as a 'Slotted Joint' which, when a stop/shunt back movement had to be executed, enabled the points to be held closed for the safe passage of the facing movement by operation of a signalling control (mechanical or electrical).
[ Last para. added 18:42 06/Jan/13.]
Last edited by StevieG on Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:42 pm, edited 5 times in total.
BZOH
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Mickey
Re: Welwyn Garden City
To be honest Stevie i remember seeing that signal 1000s of times at GREEN but you've got me wondering now was it the top or bottom aspect that was showing the GREEN although it was 40 years ago?.
When it comes to the technical aspect of signals and track circuits and such like your the master so if you think it may have been the other way around then it probably was.
When it comes to the technical aspect of signals and track circuits and such like your the master so if you think it may have been the other way around then it probably was.
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robertcwp
- GER D14 4-4-0 'Claud Hamilton'
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Re: Welwyn Garden City
Here are scans of a couple of pages of a King's Cross-Hitchin route learning booklet from 1968.
Down:
WGC-down by Robert Carroll, on Flickr
Up:
WGC-up by Robert Carroll, on Flickr
Down:
WGC-down by Robert Carroll, on FlickrUp:
WGC-up by Robert Carroll, on Flickr
Last edited by robertcwp on Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Robert Carroll
Coaching stock: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/BRC ... Stock/info
Photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp
Coaching stock: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/BRC ... Stock/info
Photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp
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R. pike
- GNR C1 4-4-2
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Re: Welwyn Garden City
I have seen a picture of the Welwyn searchlights. I'm pretty sure they were both standard MetV GRS units. The slow being a RYG 3 aspect with a position 4 PLJI and the the fast RYG+Y 4 aspect.
I can post a short movie of a four aspect searchlight doing it's business if it is of interest.
I can post a short movie of a four aspect searchlight doing it's business if it is of interest.
Re: Welwyn Garden City
R. pike wrote:I have seen a picture of the Welwyn searchlights. I'm pretty sure they were both standard MetV GRS units. The slow being a RYG 3 aspect with a position 4 PLJI and the the fast RYG+Y 4 aspect.
I can post a short movie of a four aspect searchlight doing it's business if it is of interest.
That would be good
Graham