Signallers piease look at this.

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StevieG
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Re: Signallers please look at this.

Post by StevieG »

DaveGN wrote:
StevieG wrote: Very very occasionally though, probably on complex layouts, even following the above real-life solution, 'same-colour' conflicts can still arise, in which case I have known a fifth colour to be used where absolutely unavoidable: Usually orange, or possibly even red;
On the Potters Bar panel - we have the 'correct' colours for the up and down lines and a conflicting T/C which would have been blue (into a crossover also blue) coloured pink!
Thanks v. m. Dave.
That is quite interesting indeed, for more than one reason.

I didn't remember that track circuit (TC) being a problem in this way, and consulting several of my old panel sketches reveals why.
Firstly, the need for this pink 'un has come about, as you say, from the colouring policy which has been applied to the panel that you've pictured, which partly undermines my earlier spoutings on the subject, and so partly supports Micky's originally-stated understanding about colouring by line direction.

I should explain: The first 're-signalling' (1972-3?) panel at PB, like the 1950's one, had the signalman facing the back of the box (east). Incidentally, the second and final panel in New Barnet North box (which, no doubt you know, includes PB) faced the same way, as does, in King's Cross PSB (also being on the east ('Up') side of the line with the signallers also 'back to traffic') the large panel there.
On all three of these panels, track circuit colouring was done in the way I outlined - blue/yellow and brown/green on alternate lines irrespective of direction.
But this Potters Bar panel obviously faces the opposite way to the previous one (I thought its fascia looked remarkably clean and tidy :) *), and has been done using the strict 'colours according to direction' system; - which has caused the problem in what colour that T.1232 Up Slow track circuit had to be, by using blue/yellows for both Up lines : On the other three panels that I've mentioned, the UF was blue/yellows, and the US was brown/greens (though individual TC colours on the three did not exactly match with each other, but that doesn't matter: It is not at all usual AFAIK for TC colours to be made to match between signal boxes/panels), so at that time there was no problem with this specific TC.

* - [ Do you know if this is a new panel, or the old one re-mounted the other way round, and presumably with a new complete vinyl overlay fascia?
Have any other KX box area satellite/emergency panels been moved round and/or re-surfaced using the 'TC colours by direction' system, we could wonder. ]
BZOH

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Mickey

Re: Signallers piease look at this.

Post by Mickey »

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DaveGN
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Re: Signallers piease look at this.

Post by DaveGN »

I believe this was a new panel in the 90's.

There is a picture of the Box panel on the following if you scroll down:

http://www.signalbox.org/forum/viewtopi ... 8&start=45

The National Power Signalling Register which is kept by Andy Overton, will have dates of use.
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R. pike
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Re: Signallers piease look at this.

Post by R. pike »

Mickey

Re: Signallers piease look at this.

Post by Mickey »

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StevieG
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Re: Signallers piease look at this.

Post by StevieG »

DaveGN wrote:I believe this was a new panel in the 90's.

There is a picture of the Box panel on the following if you scroll down:
http://www.signalbox.org/forum/viewtopi ... 8&start=45
The National Power Signalling Register which is kept by Andy Overton, will have dates of use.
R. pike wrote:I have this from Potters Bar...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/32297024@N ... hotostream
Without looking up other references, but to hopefully reduce potential ambiguity, the two photos; one within, the other linked-to in, the 'signalbox' website thread which Dave GN has posted a link to, plus R.pike's linked 'Flickr' photo, are all of Potters Bar '1955'-ish power signal box's Metro-Vickers/GRS panel/track diagram (with signalman facing east), as first installed with the stretch south (to the right) through the Potters Bar and Hadley Wood(x 2) Tunnels evident as still being only double-track. These would then have been modified or had new fascias fitted, in exactly the same style, for the (May?) 1959 completion of quadrupling through the tunnels to New Barnet.

Then, as Micky recalls, by '73, when the Potters Bar area had been remodelled/resignalled during the previous 12 months, the Metro-Vickers/GRS panel was concurrently replaced by a new 'satellite/emergency'-type panel facing the same way, temporarily initially functioning as the 'everyday' signal box until control was soon to be taken over by the (second) control panel by then in New Barnet (former North) box.
We haven't yet seen a picture of this panel as it was then.

Then lastly we have the 'emergency' panel pictured earlier by DaveGN, of an identical style to the '1973' panel, but which faces the opposite way (operator facing west), and could either be another new panel, or conceivably the previous one, re-orientated and re-fascia'd.
BZOH

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StevieG
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Re: Signallers piease look at this.

Post by StevieG »

Further to this thread's posts, including the original one, Andrew Overton, creator and editor of the BPSR (British Power Signalling Register), has been in touch, and relates the following :

"The OP’s panel is definitely not Tweedmouth Emergency Panel. As may be known to some, it is very rare for a local control panel (LCP) to be situated at the same location as the actual controlling box and this has only happened at a few very big boxes in more recent years where the whole panel is worked through a PMUX (Panel MUltipleXer). This means that even the interlocking downstairs is linked to the panel via a TDM (Time Division Multiplex: a method of transmitting and receiving many commands and indications over very few conductors [wires]) – which can fail and need locally controlling just like a remote interlocking. The original Tweedmouth panel was far too early for this kind of technology and the later one drives SSI (Solid State Interlocking), so no TDMs there. The only original remote interlocking associated with Tweedmouth (old) panel was Berwick upon Tweed. That did have an LCP but this isn’t it.

The style of panel reminds me a bit of a York product. I’m quite sure it is some sort of maintainer’s console for monitoring power supply and ancillary stuff like that. It has no signalling function. In 1981 Tweedmouth’s panel was extended with a BR(ER) OCS[+] ("One Control Switch" panel) section to include Goswick and Scremerston, controlling CCTV LCs and a few signals by small remote interlockings connected by TDM. It looks to me that the item pictured is associated with this – monitoring power supplies, TDMs etc.

Regarding Potters Bar LCP, yes it’s a new panel. As you can see in the BPSR it was supplied by NRS and is to a basically BR(ER) design. I have only been able to say that it was provided some time between 1994 and 2010, which is pretty rubbish but I have so little info. Hatfield LCP, Holloway LCP, Letchworth LCP, New Barnet LCP and Wood Green LCP have all had replacement fascia overlays stuck on.
"
BZOH

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Re: Signallers piease look at this.

Post by Mickey »

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52A
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Re: Signallers piease look at this.

Post by 52A »

Working from memories of long ago! When Tweedmouth new box opened in December 1961 there were, I was told 2 wires, over the Royal Border Bridge which worked the Berwick section. There was an emergency panel in the relay room at the north end of Berwick up loop, was this an early form of TDM, I beleive called Westronic?
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Re: Signallers piease look at this.

Post by R. pike »

52A wrote:Working from memories of long ago! When Tweedmouth new box opened in December 1961 there were, I was told 2 wires, over the Royal Border Bridge which worked the Berwick section. There was an emergency panel in the relay room at the north end of Berwick up loop, was this an early form of TDM, I beleive called Westronic?
This also lurks in the collection somewhere..
PC044295.JPG
macduff
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Re: Signallers piease look at this.

Post by macduff »

Here is a photo of the panel in the box at potters bar back in the late 70's when i started on the railway. it faces north and the layout of the panel is different to it's present layout. This panel went in to the relay room when they removed the box from on top of the building, a new panel and all the internal wiring and relays was installed about 2000-2001.
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Mickey

Re: Signallers piease look at this.

Post by Mickey »

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cambois
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Re: Signallers piease look at this.

Post by cambois »

52A

You are correct the Berwick emergency panel was still in existence when I worked there in 1977/8. It was there in case of a failure of the TDM.

But not sure this is it!
DaveGN
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Re: Signallers piease look at this.

Post by DaveGN »

Yes it is actually facing the same way as the previous panel - the door into the box was above the relay room roof and faced south...
Mickey

Re: Signallers piease look at this.

Post by Mickey »

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