stembok wrote:I remember that C1963-65 there was a large reorganisation of fish traffic and many trains from the various UK fishing ports ceased to run. Spring, 1964 saw a proposal to cut fish trains from Grimsby from eight a day down to two. Much traffic had already been lost to roads and what remained on rail was often unprofitable or only marginally so. B R hoped that by reorganising fish traffic it could be made more profitable, but many former customers, feeling that the new arrangements were less suitable, changed to using road transport.
Not the first cut-back; there was extensive talk which I think even reached to House of Commons in 1950 regarding the impact on the industry if trains were cut back in order to send full loads out twice a day. Another argument used against this was if all fish left Grimsby in one or two batches this effectivley levelled the 'playing field' and the first landed fish would lose a lot of its competetive edge. Or so I am told by an old Grimsby fisherman relative...
Reading this with interest- I know a fair bit about the traffic from mid 19th century to the 1920s but little after that. Interesting stuff!
wehf100: interesting point about earlier proposals to reorganise fish traffic. Under the Beeching regime, coupled with the 1962 Transport Act there was a much greater drive to identify and develop profitable traffics. Those that were lossmakers or only marginally profitable were to be reorganised and priced realistically. If this did not produce the necessary improvements revenue wise they would fall by the wayside. Some railway freight operations might appear profitable on the surface, judged by the use made of them, but the actual accounts when all factors were taken into consideration might tell a different story, as regards bottom line profit. Under the new B R scheme of 1964 fish carriage rates were to be based on wagonload, rather than consignment charging as previously. There was probably no doubt that some fish merchants had been getting a good deal under the old arrangements. The new system they found less attractive both financially and also possibly in terms of the service provided, and for example, the Hull fish merchants reportedly decided to opt out and transfer traffic to road ,save for one solitary fish train to London, from whence the fish would be delivered by lorry to areas of the capital. No doubt the improving UK trunk road and motorway network in the 1960s and refrigerated lorries also played a part in the fish train's demise.
My Mother in Law spotted this in this months "Dalesman " Magazine about a driver on the Wensleydale Railway. Including BR service. Name of Alan Mitchell.
Alan started on what was known as the Banbury link, firing a laden Hull fish train between Doncaster and Leicester, and then returning with a fast fitted freight or an even speedier parcels service. It was a ten-hour shift, and entailed getting to bed at 4am.
"By the end of the first week, I was clapped out," he smiles. "But I soon learned that firing became second nature. Three months doing this kind of duty, and your frame of mind was 'if I can fire a locomotive to Leicester and back with demands like this, I can fire any engine anywhere'. You got so used to it. You were physically stronger and mentally prepared. In other words, you'd made the grade. You were a fireman."
The 1957 WTT shows 9 fish trains from Grimsby/New Clee
1) 1304 to Banbury
2) 1648 to Nottingham LMR
3) 1713 to Ashton Moss
4) 1730 to East Goods
5) 1813 to Cambridge
6) 1825 to Leicester Central
7) 1900 to Kings Cross Goods
8 )1930 to Guide Bridge
9) 2025 to Leeds Central
On the table for the LDECR between Tuxford and Clipstone East J, I can only find two fish trains that take this route:- the 1825 to Leicester Central as listed above, and the 1845 from Hull to Banbury.
John
Last edited by strang steel on Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Well remember 'The Fish' coming through Weekday Cross south of Notingham Vic. The smell came through the tunnel before the train did. The time would have been about 19.15 on Wednesday and Friday nights (choir practice nights). Immingham Brits were commonly used but also V2s (St Peter's School York for sure on one occasion), and B1s.
Homebound schoolboy urchins of the mid 50's would delay their journey, to catch the Grimsby-Whitland 'fast fish'. Several dozen would gather between Bulwell Common and Bagthorpe Junction, for the 16.30 ritual. Invariably headed by Doncaster B1's, or Immingham K3's, displaying a sharp turn of speed in taking the snaking train down the incline to Nottingham Vic'. Certainly, at this time, it arrived on the GC via Tuxford and Mansfield, as confirmed by several Trains Illustrated reports and pictures.
Both loco and crew went through to Banbury, where a GWR 'Hall' took over...
More latterly, when the Immingham Brit's arrived, they were subject to a crew change at Lincoln's Pyewipe Jct - an event captured in a sequence of pictures taken by the late Colin Walker in his superb Eastern Region Steam Twilight, Part 2.
The 1250 Hull to Banbury was timed to pass Kirkby South Junc at 1635 in 1957, so maybe that was the train you witnessed Robert?
Perhaps, by that period, the consist was split at Banbury and a portion went forward to Whitland and elsewhere?
I do not possess any WR WTT, so have no knowledge of the journey further West.
It would be logical to assume that it originated at Grimsby, but the one that did (to Leic Cent) was much later in the day at 2138 Kirkby Sth J. at least in the 1956/57 period.
Good to see re-newed interst in this thread. I thought we had exhausted all lines of enquiry so it is good to have the new information.
All of my memories relate to the fish trains through Lincoln in early/mid 1960's when they were hauled by the Immingham Brits. So the information about the change of crews at Pyewipe is particularly interesting. I will have a look for the book that is referred to - so thanks for the reference.
I remember the trains passing through Lincoln Central at about 1745 each weekday which is consistent with a 1630 departure from Grimsby. The 1915 sighting at Nottingham seems a bit late, but makes sense if there was a crew change at Pyewipe.
I'm still puzzled over two points. How did the Brits (presumably with empties) return to Immingham? I don't have any memories of Brits returning through Lincoln - at least not during working hours. And if they made the return journey in the early hours of the morning, I would have thought there would have been some knowledge of it within the spotters community. So I wonder if they returned by a different route - not coming through Lincoln.
The other point is - why did these trains go to Whitland? Rather than say, Cardiff, Swansea or Newport? What was so special about Whitland? Was there a big marshalling yard or goods yard?
It would be really great if anyone knew the answers to these questions.
Our understanding at the time, which arose from an oblique mention in a 50's Railway Observer, was that the ultimate Whitland destination only got the three vans that remained from the original consist. IIRC (make allowance for 50 years back!), the other 'drop offs' were Banbury, Swindon, Wapley sidings (for the South-West), Cardiff & Carmarthen...
Will scour my RO 50's set, when I have a fortnight to spare
Cheers
Robt P.
I have looked through the 1957 WTT and can only find one class C working actually listed as "empty fish" to Grimsby, and that is the 09.40 from Kings Cross goods.
There is a 0955 Tavistock Junc to Hull class C working, which I presume picked up empties en route as it is not scheduled to pass Tuxford Nth Junc until 0320 the following day.
There is also a 0140 Woodford to Grimsby class C, but that is it. Compared to the 9 daily departures from Grimsby docks, it presumably means the other wagons made their way back to the Lincs coast by any available service.
This must have been an operational nightmare for those in charge of wagon logistics (is that the modern term?), trying to ensure enough empties were returned to the right places every morning.
It is a fascinating subject, and makes me want to learn much more now.
Suggest your third paragraph accurately summarises the situation...
Can visualise the numerous latter 'drop offs' working back seperately to Woodford, for inclusion on your 0140 to Grimsby - would also account for the empties never being seen!
Clearly recall the loading was heavier towards the end of the week (weekend demand?).
Of the three "countable" illustrations in my possession, the average consist is 26 wagons - with the longest being 29, behind B1 61249 Fitzherbert Wright and pictured at Dunton Bassett in 1956...
Am sure that I've forgotten much that I've read on the working in TI's and RO's from that era.
Have to agree, it's certainly an interesting and complex subject!
Yes Robert, but unless I can find a WTT from the early 1960s I think I will struggle to answer a question that I have had since those times.
I lived between Sleaford and Boston during the 60s, and for a few years there was a westbound fish train just after 7pm. The loco may have been a K3 at first, but for much of the time it was a B1. The train was going at a fair old speed on most days. As kids we used to count the number of wagons of goods trains, but this one was travelling so fast that once we had got beyond twelve it became almost impossible to count, as the time it took to say thirteen was slower than it took for each wagon to pass by.
I dont know what the speed limit was for 4-wheeled vans, but I think the line speed limit was 60mph, and I would not be surprised if the train was getting close to that at times. The guards van was never at the end of the train, which some folk say was for easy detachment of wagons en route, but others reckon it was to make the guards journey more comfortable, as his van would not hunt quite so much when marshalled between other wagons.
My problem is the destination of the train. London bound fish trains went via Spalding, East Midlands bound ones via Lincoln and either Newark or the LDEC. I cannot think of an obvious destination that would necessitate taking the Sleaford route from Boston. My only conclusion is that it was diverted that way for a few years to ease the pressure on the Lincoln area until the improvements were made around the Pelham Street crossing.
High Street Crossing wrote: How did the Brits (presumably with empties) return to Immingham? I don't have any memories of Brits returning through Lincoln - at least not during working hours. And if they made the return journey in the early hours of the morning, I would have thought there would have been some knowledge of it within the spotters community. So I wonder if they returned by a different route - not coming through Lincoln.
The other point is - why did these trains go to Whitland? Rather than say, Cardiff, Swansea or Newport? What was so special about Whitland? Was there a big marshalling yard or goods yard?
It would be really great if anyone knew the answers to these questions.
I don't recall seeing an Immingham Brit with or without empties heading north through Nottingham.
And I've wondered at times which Whitland they ran to. Certainly Whitland (Pembs, maybe Carms) is and was a very small station. There's a Whitland just north of Cardiff but that seems very unlikely too. And Brits weren't allowed west of Swansea in steam days. Only a guess but Severn Tunnel Junc would have been about as far as they'd let them go.
Immingham Brits worked no further than Banbury, where they handed over to WR locomotion. Possibly worked home on the 60's equivalent of SS's 0140 Woodford to Grimsby class C, which would also account for the 'no see'...
Cheers
Robt P.
It certainly would account for me not seeing the return trip for sure Rob! The Fish which would appear out of the Weekday Cross tunnel had usually been held in Nottingham Victoria for about half an hour as vans were taken off and the guard's van shunted about. I recall seeing a clean 70041 waiting at Vic with steam aplenty on The Fish, when a grubby 70015 with a Marylebone-Vic semi fast came clanking in, steam leaking from everywhere, looking very sorry for itself. The contrast was very marked. That would probably have been in the harsh winter of 62/63. A year later the Brits would have gone and Class 37 diesels (I think, not very good on diesels) were in charge.
