King's Cross Goods Yard Buildings

[john coffin]

For interest,
the average potato tonnage at the market from 1865 to around 1939 seems to have been
about 100,000 ton per years, as much as 120,000 in some years.

Also worth knowing is that fruit and vegetables accounted for about 40,000 tons per year.

Think about this, that is about 8,333 12 ton open wagons or more spectacularly 140 trains of 60 vehicles a year,
assuming that is a practical number for such a train. I would guess though loose coupled so maybe only 40 wagons
which is about 175 trains, or one every two days during the whole year.

I wonder how many modellers have such trains in their timetable.

Paul

[rockinjohn]

Hi john&mickey ah the "flettons" boogie wagons may have answered the same question, no bricks, just "taters"as an aside (31B) 01's could be sited sometimes @ this spot all good info for the modellers?jj

[Hatfield Shed]

Two photographs and short accompanying piece in the Hulton Picture Library based compilation 'LNER Reflections'.

Out in the fens W Dennis and Sons operation had 20 miles of 2' gauge to move the spuds to a private siding with a loading bank at Littleworth Station. The date is given as 21st April 1926, and there are nine general merchandise opens visible on the platform, with loading underway of sacked maincrop potatoes, heaped to just protruding above the top of the wagon. No tarps in evidence, so they may well have travelled like that, and I reckon these to be 'hundredweight' sacks, though at that date they might still be bushel measure and thus slightly different. Large heavy sackloads, whatever! Given the date, these must be the previous year's harvest, held in 'clamps' to preserve them through the winter, and recently sacked for transport to market (I worked part time in greengrocery while a student, and remember this all too well, by spring every sack of last year's maincrop would have one going foul!). The train engine is J3 4109.

According to the caption, peak season was July and August, and this siding could then despatch six or seven trains daily; or 200 to 400 wagons daily of potatoes from Littleworth (which may well not all be through the private siding illustrated, the text isn't clear on this point.) The caption goes on to state that the Peterborough - London vegetable (mainly potato) train ran in six portions at the peak of the season.

[john coffin]

I am sure that the Littleworth traffic was consolidated at Peterborough into bigger trains, but it is interesting to note how
much traffic one farmer/merchant created in peak season.

The Lincolnshire Potato railways were covered in a book published by I think Oakwood many years ago.

What this does show is how little we know and can actually prove about the diversity of traffic on our railways before
the second world war, and how to properly shunt goods trains.

Paul

[Seagull]

If you have an interest in potatos there is a book 'The Lincolnshire potato railways' by Stewart E Squires published 1987.

I have the 'Immense and Exceedingly Commodious Goods Station' book which is very good, I don't remember mention of further volumes though, but I'm away so don't have it to hand.

If you want to spend less money also available is 'The King's Cross Story: 200 Years of History in the Railway Lands' by Peter Darley. Currently it can be had for about £14-16 and I would say is not far behind the larger book despite the cost and size difference. In fact I think it is better at telling the overall history of the area and the building of the goods yard and station.

Alan

[Hatfield Shed]

...What this does show is how little we know and can actually prove about the diversity of traffic on our railways before
the second world war, and how to properly shunt goods trains.

Couldn't agree more. But it is fairly safe to assume that until the large scale programme of construction of more efficient roads from the late fifties on, much (most?) of the internal trade of the UK that had to go more than 50 miles went by rail. My solution is to have freight trains which represent proportionally the mixture of wagons in traffic at the time. Tarps over the general merchandise opens conceals the embarrasment of lack of knowledge of what they might be carrying. Largely duck the shunting issue by doing very little. (Loco coal into loco yard, empties and ash out seems safe enough.)

[john coffin]

I agree that Peter Darley's book is really good, well laid out, and exceptional value.
Having communicated with Peter a couple of years ago, he seemed to have carried out
a great deal of research and covered most of the ground necessary.

As regards to shunting, I was thinking about the number of layouts at exhibitions that have
shunting carried out, that do not seem to have any real logic to them, and are certainly not
prototypical. Mind you,whilst we may have some people around who were involved shunting during
steam days on BR, no one is still around now to tell us about the GNR or LNER times.

Paul

[StevieG]

Thanks for posting that Mickey,
I have a better understanding of those locations now, and what a lovely, detailed shot of York Road Viaduct. I know Phil Marsh, who is credited as taking that shot, so will have to pester him for a copy of the original next time I see him!

Of note is the building above Arches 1-7 on the left .. two brick buildings with pointed roofs with what appears to be wooden canopy's between them. That part of King's Cross goods still survives and can be found on Google Earth, but is also in this view https://britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EAW028504 at the very top left of the picture, if you zoom in - you need to be registered with the site to zoom in however.

Rich

Rich,
In case it avoids any future confusion if plans/diagrams come into the picture for you or others, the first five arches from left-to-right which are of exactly the same appearance and through one of which the left-most of the then remaining sidings runs, were officially known by letters, A to E, left-to-right. I think those constituted the original York Road/Way bridge over the original goods yard lines.

The arches continuing to the right (at a slightly different angle you may note) from above right of the solitary wagon were officially numbered 1 to at least 14, passing over the later-added lines to 'Top Shed', the 'North Yard' [ including the line up (northwards) from that yard to the Caledonian Goods & Coal Yard (near Caledonian Road & Barnsbury station on the North London line) ], and the "North London Incline" line from Goods & Mineral Jn. box up (westwards) to St. Pancras Junction box on the NLL.

[Mickey]

One dark night a GNR train of 'spuds' came up from Lincolnshire and arrived in the Goods yard on the 'Potato road' and stopped then shortly afterwards a GNR train of 'fish' arrived on the Goods yard from Grimsby and instead of being put on the 'Fish road' it was wrongly put on the 'Potato road' and collided with the train of spuds spilling fish and potato's all over the place!!. Apparently everyone in the Goods yard had a 'fish & chips' supper that night!.

[60048]

Rich,
In case it avoids any future confusion if plans/diagrams come into the picture for you or others, the first five arches from left-to-right which are of exactly the same appearance and through one of which the left-most of the then remaining sidings runs, were officially known by letters, A to E, left-to-right. I think those constituted the original York Road/Way bridge over the original goods yard lines.

The arches continuing to the right (at a slightly different angle you may note) from above right of the solitary wagon were officially numbered 1 to at least 14, passing over the later-added lines to 'Top Shed', the 'North Yard' [ including the line up (northwards) from that yard to the Caledonian Goods & Coal Yard (near Caledonian Road & Barnsbury station on the North London line) ], and the "North London Incline" line from Goods & Mineral Jn. box up (westwards) to St. Pancras Junction box on the NLL.

Stevie,
Thats great, thanks for the clarification and info. Much appreciated. I am hoping to write all of this info up as part of a website on my model railway one day! So having the clarity is great. Thank you.

Rich

[StevieG]

To perhaps clarify a little Rich, the 'Cally Coal Yard' line out of the North Yard went through Arch 9, and the NL Incline line through 14.

[rockinjohn]

Hi Mickey a lapse of memory of course I witnessed 350HP shunters after the J52's had long departed, whether BLK 133xx or GRn D32xx/D34xx@ the same sidings,also didn't "Smiths"crisps have a large plantation for growing potatoes in Lincolnshire,served by an extensive narrow guage railway system connecting to a British Railways sidings,wonder who supplied the little blue bags of salt for the crisps?

[Mickey]

rockinjohn a 350hp 0-6-0 diesel shunter was usually kept in the Goods yard around Five Arch and when requiring to re-fuel either going to Finsbury Park MPD of the 'Passenger loco' at the cross. Late one Sunday night back in 1974 when I was a secondman at Kings Cross in no.5 gang I was on a diagram with a driver I think it was on No.2 shunt (the 2nd Kings Cross pilot loco) and we were to take a 350hp diesel shunter up to the Goods yard in the early hours on Monday morning around 12:45am but the job was CANCELLED which cheesed me off a lot because I wanted to go up into the Goods yard after midnight and have a look around?. Maybe Goods And Mineral Junction box closed that night and that's why the job was cancelled although a light was usually left 'switched on' over the book in the box but that in it's self didn't mean the box was open though?. Still I wanted to go to the Goods yard that night which was a annoying to me when the job was cancelled.

As for Smith's crisps they're nice with a pint as is KP nuts.

[PinzaC55]

rockinjohn a 350hp 0-6-0 diesel shunter was usually kept in the Goods yard around Five Arch and when requiring to re-fuel either going to Finsbury Park MPD of the 'Passenger loco' at the cross. Late one Sunday night back in 1974 when I was a secondman at Kings Cross in no.5 gang I was on a diagram with a driver I think it was on No.2 shunt (the 2nd Kings Cross pilot loco) and we were to take a 350hp diesel shunter up to the Goods yard in the early hours on Monday morning around 12:45am but the job was CANCELLED which cheesed me off a lot because I wanted to go up into the Goods yard after midnight and have a look around?. Maybe Goods And Mineral Junction box closed that night and that's why the job was cancelled although a light was usually left 'switched on' over the book in the box but that in it's self didn't mean the box was open though?. Still I wanted to go to the Goods yard that night which was a annoying to me when the job was cancelled.

As for Smith's crisps they're nice with a pint as is KP nuts.

You're a brave guy wanting to go to KX Goods at 00.45 ! I was a KX guard from 1983 - 89 and one time I was told to go up there at about 19.00 and take a train of parcels vans to Ferme Park. I had to walk it and at one point there was a brick building with a nice overall roof, there was junk everywhere too. It was dusk and standing in front of me was a rat the size of a small dog. We stared at each other like Clint Eastwood and Lee Van Cleef but it obviously wasn't going to move so I made a detour round it with my tail between my legs.

[Mickey]

Ha ha ha... Yeah Pinza it was also a bit desolate around the Goods yard nearly a decade early in the mid 1970s as well except for around Five Arch and the shunter's 'lobby' and train crews mess room. After Goods And Mineral Junction box closed in October 1975 and also Five Arch Shunting Frame as well they opened Freight Terminal Junction 'box' a panel job at ground level built of all brick with a flat roof and with a glass fronted window overlooking the few arrival and departure roads which struck me as a lonely job being alone in the vast empty Goods yard especially at night although Freight Terminal Junction only lasted about 10 years before closing around 1985.