The caladonian goods yard in the 1950s

[strang steel]

Thanks everyone for all the contributions to this thread. I have always been somewhat confused as to how the line to the Caledonian Coal Yard fitted in with the link from the NLL to the down ECML but I think I now understand the arrangement of tracks.

However, I am still a bit unsure of how coal wagons would be worked in a more general sense. Would a portion of a coal train be tripped from Kings Cross Goods up the incline, and presumably just reversed into the yard? Or would the trip working originate from somewhere more distant (Ferme Park perhaps?) across to KX Goods and the loco run round before going up the slope?

I hope that makes sense.

[StevieG]

" .... However, I am still a bit unsure of how coal wagons would be worked in a more general sense. Would a portion of a coal train be tripped from Kings Cross Goods up the incline, and presumably just reversed into the yard? Or would the trip working originate from somewhere more distant (Ferme Park perhaps?) across to KX Goods and the loco run round before going up the slope?

I hope that makes sense. "

Given the steepness of the inclined track from 'the North Yard' up to the level of the reversal point that was higher than the Goods lines portal of Copenhagen Tunnel, I expect that not many loaded wagons would be tripped up at a time (there may well have been an instruction about this in the Sectional Appendix), and as I believe that short trains on such steeply graded lines were often propelled, with the loco at the bottom end in both directions to avoid possibly catastrophic runaways from failure of wagon drawbar or couplings, this line might have been worked in that way.
Also, there was a short run-round loop at the reversal point, so my guess is that trips were propelled up to the reversal point south of Blundell Street, ran-round, and were then propelled round across the top of the tunnel bores, and into the Caledonian yard's dead-end roads, with return trips doing the same in reverse, meaning that both those legs would have been hauled.

[StevieG]

Just a reminder that, in case of interest / assisting understanding of what was where, at and around the area of the Goods & Mineral signal box part of Kings Cross Goods Yard, including the line up to Caledonian Goods &Coal Yard, -
- in this LNER Forums' thread, titled "Caledonian Road Goods Depot" - viewtopic.php?f=5&t=86&p=83202#p83202 , -
- the 21st March 2013 posts at 14:20, 15:44, and 17:29, include six approx.1970 photos of mine, one of which, looking south over the yard from the North London Line 'viaduct' bridge, is a stitched combination of two photos to form a single image.

I have also just noted that although the box diagram's title was just "Goods & Mineral", the box's nameboards bear the suffix "Junction".

[ Edited 21:10 16th Jan. 2015, to correct incomplete 'viewtopic' link ]

[Seagull]

Hello Micky,

Thanks for that reply. I do remember now seeing a previous reference to Five Arch frame but not where I saw it.
It makes sense about the loco yard points being hand worked, but I don't recall seeing any photo with an obvious point lever in it, even close ups. I will have to look harder.

Hello StevieG,

I saw those pictures before and have downloaded them into my computer for reference. Thanks again for posting them.

Alan

[Mickey]

Thanks for that reply. I do remember now seeing a previous reference to Five Arch frame but not where I saw it.
It makes sense about the loco yard points being hand worked, but I don't recall seeing any photo with an obvious point lever in it, even close ups. I will have to look harder.

With reference to Five Arch shunting frame it was the usual long standing practice for the 'signalman' working the cabin to leave the miniture signals and the couple of full size semaphore stop signal 'pulled off' for shunting purposes and they were only replaced to danger (on all Departure roads) when a goods train or light engine was approaching on an Arrival line from Goods And Mineral Junction.

With reference to hand worked points some hand worked point handles were designed to lay almost flat on the ground along side to the set of points they applied to so you may find it hard to spot the point handle from a picture?. I don't know if any of those type of point handles were used at Top Shed of if they used the more common type of point handles that stand up at the points they applied to??.

[StevieG]

" .... However, I am still a bit unsure of how coal wagons would be worked in a more general sense. Would a portion of a coal train be tripped from Kings Cross Goods up the incline, and presumably just reversed into the yard? Or would the trip working originate from somewhere more distant (Ferme Park perhaps?) across to KX Goods and the loco run round before going up the slope?

I hope that makes sense. "

Given the steepness of the inclined track from 'the North Yard' up to the level of the reversal point that was higher than the Goods lines portal of Copenhagen Tunnel, I expect that not many loaded wagons would be tripped up at a time (there may well have been an instruction about this in the Sectional Appendix), and as I believe that short trains on such steeply graded lines were often propelled, with the loco at the bottom end in both directions to avoid possibly catastrophic runaways from failure of wagon drawbar or couplings, this line might have been worked in that way.
Also, there was a short run-round loop at the reversal point, so my guess is that trips were propelled up to the reversal point south of Blundell Street, ran-round, and were then propelled round across the top of the tunnel bores, and into the Caledonian yard's dead-end roads, with return trips doing the same in reverse, meaning that both those legs would have been hauled.

Have now dug out the 1960 S.Appdx., and p.278 of the book has the following item, in the Local Instructions section (the beginning of various sections/sentences of the instructions are indented as if to possibly equate to new paragraphs : As I don't know of a way to replicate the indenting here, I have instead applied conventional new paragraphing) :
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

WORKING BETWEEN GOODS & MINERAL JUNCTION AND CALEDONIAN COAL YARD.
The Single line between Goods & Mineral Junction and Caledonian Coal Yard is worked in accordance with the Regulations for Working Single lines by One engine in Steam, etc. and the Train Staff is kept in Goods & Mineral Junction box.

An engine must not enter upon nor foul, or be upon any portion of the line between Goods & Mineral Junction and Caledonian Coal Yard or Sidings without the Train Staff (which Fireman must obtain from Signalman) being on engine.

Each train must have a brake van, with a Brakesman or Shunter in it, at each end.

When passing over the Single line between Goods & Mineral Junction and Caledonian Coal Yard and Sidings, the engine must be at the south end of train.

Before leaving the yard or sidings, the Brakesman or Shunter must put on and secure the brake of van, and whenever the load exceeds ten wagons the brakes of three of the wagons on the train must be pinned down. One of the Brakesmen or Shunters must hold the facing points on Single line when engine or train has to descend incline.

When engine has returned from Caledonian Coal Yard or Sidings to Goods & Mineral Junction box, the Fireman must deliver the Train Staff into the custody of the Signalman there.

There must not be more than twelve loaded or empty wagons with brake van and engine in front when passing down from yard or sidings to Goods & Mineral Junction.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

It may be thought, on careful reading of the above instruction, that a few of the original's words may have been omitted from the above copy in error, as some of the above phrases are a little brusque and do not flow as well as they could : I have certainly seen many such instructions which read much better. But I have double-checked my transcription of the instruction and have definitely not omitted any words. Perhaps a subsequent amendment was issued to improve the original 1960 version.

[Seagull]

The reference to Five Arch I now remember was under telephone numbers in a WTT so not much help.

However I did fall over this on the Signal Box Org website which I have not seen there before:- Goods & Mineral Junction 1967

Alan

[strang steel]

Thanks for the transcript StevieG. Everything is becoming much clearer now.

Does anyone know which might have been the preferred loco (in pre-diesel days) for this working?

J50 maybe, or J52?

[Mickey]

As posted once before several years ago when i was acting as a secondman at Kings Cross (between 1974-75) on 4 or 5 occasions during the summer of 1975 i recall working 'the fish' up from Doncaster to Kings Cross Goods Yard with the usual class of loco for that job which was a EE type 4 (or 2000 or class 40) and after relieving a 'northern crew' at Doncaster station around midnight with my driver it was 'right away' up the fast line all the was back to London arriving in the Goods Yard sometime around 2:15am in the covered market area beyond Five Arch shunting frame.

On one particular night when coming off the Up fast line at Holloway south Up and travelling over the flyover on the Up Goods line over the other running lines before entering Copenhagen Goods line tunnel i recall being surprised to see one of the Goods And Mineral Junction distant signals one of a group of 4 being 'pulled off' and showing a green which according to John Hinson's track diagram of Goods And Mineral was distant signal no.1. It was very rare to see any of that group of 4 distant signals showing a off indication at anytime!?!?.

[StevieG]

" .. On one particular night when coming off the Up fast line at Holloway south Up and travelling over the flyover on the Up Goods line over the other running lines before entering Copenhagen Goods line tunnel i recall being surprised to see one of the Goods And Mineral Junction distant signals one of a group of 4 being 'pulled off' and showing a green which according to John Hinson's track diagram of Goods And Mineral was distant signal no.1.

,,,Should've taken you via crossover 6 straight into No.8 Arch Sidings in 'the North Yard' then Micky. I often wondered whether that signal or the one above it (or even the one on the middle doll, No.48, into the "New Reception" roads ) were really ever used by those times [... : but then there were many times of the day/night when I'd never been there.]

It was very rare to see any of that group of 4 distant signals showing a off indication at anytime!?!?.

Well that sounds rather weird Micky, as G&M wasn't supposed to accept anything other than a light engine from 'South Up' until one of those Distants was already 'Off'; but was the working perhaps changed in the last couple of years, I wonder ; - officially allowing what you describe. ( I think I do remember sometime, heading towards the last days, that the Notice Board on that Distants bracket signal's main post that read "TRAINS MUST NOT PASS THESE SIGNALS AT DABGER", had disappeared).

[Mickey]

" .. On one particular night when coming off the Up fast line at Holloway south Up and travelling over the flyover on the Up Goods line over the other running lines before entering Copenhagen Goods line tunnel i recall being surprised to see one of the Goods And Mineral Junction distant signals one of a group of 4 being 'pulled off' and showing a green which according to John Hinson's track diagram of Goods And Mineral was distant signal no.1.

,,,Should've taken you via crossover 6 straight into No.8 Arch Sidings in 'the North Yard' then Micky. I often wondered whether that signal or the one above it (or even the one on the middle doll, No.48, into the "New Reception" roads ) were really ever used [... : but then there were many times of the day/night when I'd never been there.][quote="Micky]It was very rare to see any of that group of 4 distant signals showing a off indication at anytime!?!?.

Well that sounds rather weird Micky, as G&M wasn't supposed to accept anything other than a light engine from 'South Up' until one of those Distants was already 'Off'; but was the working perhaps changed in the last couple of years, I wonder ; - officially allowing what you describe. ( I think I do remember sometime, heading towards the last days, that the Notice Board on that Distants bracket signal's main post that read "TRAINS MUST NOT PASS THESE SIGNALS AT DABGER", had disappeared).[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]
I didn't make my post clear Stevie on re-reading it yes it can be misread when i said "it was very rare to see any of that group of 4 distant signals showing a off indication at anytime" what i meant was seeing any of those 4 distant signals showing off at anytime was a very rare sight especially from a passing train on the passenger lines?.

The above post took place 40 years ago this summer and i can't be sure if that particular night was the only night i saw that distant signal showing off but there was atleast that one night i do recall it showing a green thats definite (maybe there was a couple of other nights as well it was showing off but i've forgotten?) also on reflection i do vaguely recall that no.2 home signal being pulled off because i was curious to know when we got through Copenhagen Goods line tunnel which one of the stop signals on the gantry immediately beyond the tunnel mouth would be off and i do recall that the lower arm was showing off with the one above was at danger now i think back?.

[StevieG]

" With reference to Five Arch shunting frame it was the usual long standing practice for the 'signalman' working the cabin to leave the miniature signals and the couple of full size semaphore stop signal 'pulled off' for shunting purposes and they were only replaced to danger (on all Departure roads) when a goods train or light engine was approaching on an Arrival line from Goods And Mineral Junction. .... "

Those miniature arms applied to shunting out onto the two Goods Arrivals and the Shunt Line, and FAB also controlled the one full-size arm that was normally 'Off' (towards Goods Departure : No.25) : [The arm for the New Reception sidings was put back by one of the ground frames.].
It was very convenient inside the 'box' to leave all these 'Off' because they gave that indication when the levers concerned were Normal, with 25's lever badge clearly including "PULL TO PUT TO DANGER".

The two Stop Shunt signals for the Goods Arrivals were worked by multi-function levers that were therefore coloured in an odd, possibly unique, way, that perhaps part-demonstrated what a strange place Five Arch Bridge was : They were done IIRC, in four equal-sized portions, which, looking top-to-bottom, were respectively red, yellow, white, black.

[StevieG]

I meant to add earlier, to my post with the 'Cally Coal Yard' line''s working Instruction, a reminder that : -
- Despite the involvement in the working, of the Goods & Mineral signalman and a One Engine In Steam Train Staff, there were no fixed signals involved in working this, what seems to essentially be a, yard-to-yard line.

Also, further to the 'further to', etc., etc. posts, I hope R.Pike doesn't mind my posting here, his following links posted in the Forum of http://www.signalbox.org, to his signal box diagram images relevant to G&M and FAB : -

Goods & Mineral Juction .. https://www.flickr.com/photos/32297024@N08/15982109249/
Five Arch Bridge .. https://www.flickr.com/photos/32297024@ ... otostream/

[Mickey]

Well that sounds rather weird Micky, as G&M wasn't supposed to accept anything other than a light engine from 'South Up' until one of those Distants was already 'Off'; but was the working perhaps changed in the last couple of years, I wonder ; - officially allowing what you describe.

In the book DIESELS OUT OF KINGS CROSS published by Ian Alan in 1981 theres a photograph of a Brush type 2 (class 31) at the head of a GN Electrification train with a brake van behind the loco just approaching Goods And Mineral's Up Goods line distant signals (group of 4 arms) all the arms standing at caution dated July 1974.

Thinking about it Stevie it makes good signalling sense for the signalman at Goods And Mineral to before he accepts a train other than a light engine from Holloway south Up on the Up Goods line to be in a position to 'clear the route throughout' into an arrival line towards Five Arch because that Up Goods line is/was on a falling gradient from coming over the flyover at the north end of Copenhagen tunnel mouth then through Copenhagen Goods line tunnel it's self to beyond Goods And Mineral's home signals on the gantry just outside the tunnel mouth just incase a goods train did over run the home signal(s) so if he the signalman was in a position to clear the route throughout to Five Arch then he could accept from Holloway south Up and then clear the route including the Up Goods line distant signal as well.

[StevieG]

For possible further interest, two more photos can be found through the below, courtesy of John Hinson's http://www.signalbox.org :

Goods & Mineral:
http://www.signalbox.org/forum_files/go ... BPA%5D.jpg
Photo P Armand, c1972, collection of John Hinson

and Five Arch Bridge:
http://www.signalbox.org/forum_files/fi ... BPA%5D.jpg
Photo P Armand, c1972, collection of John Hinson