hq1hitchin wrote:What an interesting topic. Anyone out there oblige with a drawing or a picture on here, please? I read about it in the old FAS Brown book on HNG when I was still at school and think that HNG had it attached to the rear of an express and rode in it from KX to Hitchin at speed. Incidentally, about that time, I remember seeing a collier called 'Cretefield' in use as a coal hulk in Waterford, Ireland. That too was built out of concrete but dated back to the Great War. I believe it was eventually scuttled and used as part of the foundations for the (still rail served) Belview Terminal on the River Suir.
The article in Railway Modeller (October 1975) gives a detailed drawing, and also says that Messrs K Holst & Co cast two such vans on standard underframes. There is also a photograph of the inside as well as the outside.
Paul G has posted most of the information relating to the Ferro-concrete brake van designed by Messrs Holst for the LNER and constructed under their supervision at Stratford (actually Temple Mills, as that was the former GER wagon works). The RM article in October 1975 was based on a contemporary item in the Journal of the Concrete Society, of which I obtained a copy. I also have a copy of the contemporary item from the Railway Magazine.
Both refer to only one such vehicle being constructed.
I wrote to the company that subsumed Messrs Holst concerning any records or other information appertaining to this vehicle but never received the courtesy of a reply - without any additional information, particularly as to why such a design was commissioned (although I can conjecture why) and genuine confirmation as to how many had been constructed (although everything points to only one) there seemed little point in re-jigging that which had already been written. Apparently, although I do not have a copy, there was then an item in Backtrack February 2006, about which a fellow member of the GERS e-Group remarked that 'someone has been reading our mail'.
It was apparent from my exchange of missives with the current editor of Concrete magazine that experiments in constructing railway vehicles using concrete, as well as the other examples referred to in posts in this thread, took place on both sides of the Atlantic from 1918.
My understanding on the matter of copyright of the magazine articles, confirmed by someone with a legal background who checked with his former boss, an expert in the subject and a former President of the Law Society, is that the copyright lasts until the end of the 25th year after the year of publication, so as such only the Backtrack article is still subject to copyright restrictions.
2512silverfox wrote:The LNER publicity and works photos suggest that the concrete brake van was unpainted in service since the running number etc was cast into the concrete and it was photographed in this state with underframe etc finished as normal...
The photograph accompanying the Railway Magazine article shows it 'in the raw', whereas those accompanying the Concrete Society Journal show both states, an end view before the knees, handrails and lamp irons were fitted, and end and three-quarter views after full painting. Given the ex-NER style wooden duckets (as per Toad B) and all other additional fittings as per that standard wooden-bodied van, were it not for the lines of the horizontal boarding used for shuttering the concrete body casting it would be indistinguishable in service from any other Toad B.
The RM article is useful in another respect for the interior view shows through the open end door of the cabin the sand box, and this also appears on the accompanying drawing, together with the arrangement of the pipework to the wheels. The Skinley drawing also shows this, but front view photographs of the sand box are very rare - and in fact the sanding gear was removed from all LNER brake vans by 1936.
Having now had sight of a copy of Norman Newsome's Technical Paper given to the Institution of Locomotive Engineers in 1948, I can confirm that there was only one van constructed. The Guards objected to it being cold and damp from condensation, so a wooden floor was laid over the concrete casting and the concrete walls and roof sprayed with cork to stop the condensation. From a technical and maintenance view it was very good, the only attention (apart from the running gear) being to point up the areas above the buffers where spalling of the concrete occurred due to buffing shocks. However, the van's original cost was greater than that of a conventionally-constructed van and no more were built. There is no information as to when it was withdrawn from service.
In 1940, consideration was given to constructing both open and covered wagons using concrete to conserve timber stocks, but the idea was not pursued due to the increased tare weight that would result.
Edit: PS - the photo in the Technical Paper shows the brake van fully-painted.
Last edited by 65447 on Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
65447 wrote:In 1940, consideration was given to constructing both open and covered wagons using concrete to conserve timber stocks, but the idea was not pursued due to the increased tare weight that would result.
At least they didn't think of building them from Pycrete.......
Article with drawings of the concrete van in October 75 RM states two vans built by K. Holst & Co but photos depict only 158355 as per the posted images above, so I'm not arguing with the assertion that there was only one van.
Sorry - I now see that this is duplication of information above!
What about the livery though? The interiors of the verandahs do not appear to be as dark as the applied main body colour. The duckets and end stanchions look darker. Not apparently red-oxide all over, as per the standard scheme........
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Atlantic 3279 wrote:Article with drawings of the concrete van in October 75 RM states two vans built by K. Holst & Co but photos depict only 158355 as per the posted images above, so I'm not arguing with the assertion that there was only one van.
Sorry - I now see that this is duplication of information above!
What about the livery though? The interiors of the verandahs do not appear to be as dark as the applied main body colour. The duckets and end stanchions look darker. Not apparently red-oxide all over, as per the standard scheme........
Do pay attention at the back there; write out 100 times "Cyril Freezer was not always right"...
I've not come across anything so far that offers a paint scheme, but it's probable from the monochrome photographs that the verandah area was painted the same colour as the interiors, and which was possibly the same colour as the interiors of passenger brake vans. Certainly in that photograph the contrast suggests a quite light shade of whichever colour. There's also a dark and undistinguished interior photo in the RM article, from which only educated guesses can be made as to the colours and painting scheme.
Were the railways trying to "cement" a new style of building material? Concrete vans, concrete signal posts, concrete notice board posts and lineside fence posts, concrete lineside ballast bins. I think the Hornby Dublo stations were based on the concrete buildings of the time.
Jim Brodie
As an afterthought, I wondered whether the red-oxide paint was actually applied to both the concrete body and the timber fittings, but dried matt on the concrete and slightly glossy (at least) on the timber, giving the darker appearance. Maybe they even went so far as to use a different kind of paint on the concrete?
Being too lazy to go and try to look it up, he now rather naively asks "what colour were the passenger brake van interiors please?"
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Atlantic 3279 wrote:Being too lazy to go and try to look it up, he now rather naively asks "what colour were the passenger brake van interiors please?"
Digging this one out of the vaults because my memory was jogged by a short article in the Gresley Observer (Journal of the Gresley Society) No. 155, Autumn 2011.
A Mr. Mel Haigh sent in a drawing and an extract from a company magazine dated Spring 1975 recounting the building of the concrete vehicles.
"Vintage Brake Van.
Holst design and construct service has always been noted for resourcefulness and competence, qualities which were in demand 45 years ago when tackling this unusual request from the railways.
In 1929 the offices of K Holst Limited at No 1 Victoria Street, London were asked to design and build a concrete railway goods brake van for the London North Eastern Railway. The reason for this request was that the railways were beginning to speed up freight trains and the traditional steel and timber construction did not provide enough weight or ballast on the end of long trains.
The engineers and draughtsmen from the company's own design offices determined exactly how it was to be laid out but left the reinforced concrete design and construction to the Holst experts. In fact the last John W Sands (who dies on 2 February 1966 when he was the area manager for Scotland) was the design engineer who did the work and a copy of one of his superb drawings is reproduced here.
Not many of our present staff can recall this unusual job but C R Leonard of Watford drawing office turned up the negatives of the original drawings and gave us some of the details. W H Lintill, who recently retired as area director South Wales, but was at that time in London of course, actually cut out the plywood figures and letters for the moulds at home in his spare time. He remembered that two brake vans were made in reinforced concrete and so he had to make two sets of numbers as well as the big letters LNER and after buying the plywood and spending hours on the fretsaw he was give a ten shilling note - "Less than the cost of the wood!" as he said.
The reason that only two were built was that the railway officials wished to test them with the utmost rigour. Not only were they crashed and shunted and given the worst conditions of every situation but they were put on service with goods trains in all weathers. They were not adopted, eventually, because the guards complained about the cold and, in certain conditions, the condensation inside. Remember they were built in very thin reinforced panels and there were none of today's foam plastic insulating materials to apply internally. Also instead of a completely new layout for ventilation and warmth the railway designers adhered to the traditional guards van style.
They were built on the railway in a siding at Stratford by the late Mr Henriksen, foreman and were in situ not precast construction. There was a drawing office joke at the time that we produced a beautifully water coloured drawing to the railway and they said "That's very pretty, but our colour scheme will be different". As a result there was a note of the bottom of the drawing to the effect "All coloured red, paint blue, all coloured blue, paint yellow, etc."
The drawing is also reproduced in the journal but in a very small format and is difficult to read.
Please note that the above remains copyright of the Gresley Society and should not be reproduced further without permission of the Society.
Last edited by jwealleans on Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
I assumed that K. Holst became a part of what is presently Norwest Holst and wrote to the company a few years agos enquiring after details and in particular why such a design was commissioned by the LNER. I did not receive any acknowledgement, let alone a reply.
